Newbie holding questions

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

The most common cause of radio failure is electrical failure, which
will indeed take out both your com and your nav, but there are
scenarios which will just take out your com. I've once had a relay in
the audio panel go TU and do exactly that. I once had a com radio
fail in a way that just produced intensly loud static.


I have headset jacks that bypass the audio panel

"A Lieberman" wrote in message
.. .

Not true. Stuck mic comes to mind quickly.


A stuck mic is not a situation where the radios have gone belly up, it's a
situation that illuminates a light on the panel and is soon rectified.



Squelch set too high would be second in mind.


I don't set the squelch too high.



Something could fry within the com unit....


....but wouldn't affect the other one.

A hold, by definition is a delay.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
message
nk.net...
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:%D0vf.40496$QW2.15228@dukeread08...
|
| But if no delay is expected and you have a radio failure
| without an EFC, just how long are you expected to hold?
|
|
| You're not expected to hold.
|
|
|
| If you are given a clearance to hold w/o an EFC there is
| still some delay expected, otherwise ATC would not issue
a
| hold.
|
|
| If a delay was expected an EFC would have been issued.
|
|
|
| Make them say how much delay or give an EFC/EAC time
| or you'll be holding until the fuel runs out. Maybe the
| book does not require ATC to issue a time, but my sense
of
| self-preservation wants to know.
|
|
| How much delay? The answer is "None." The book says do
not specify an EFC
| if no delay is expected. If your sense of
self-preservation can't live with
| that don't fly IFR.
|
|

Steve,
I'm not understanding your comment about "not expected to hold"
in the even of a radio failure without an EFC time. Are you implying
that as soon as I have radio failure I should begin to execute the
approach or to continue as flight planned or initially cleared? I'm real
concerned that assumption could lead to at best some heated phone calls
and at worst a leading story on the evening news.



-----Original Message-----
From: Steven P. McNicoll ]
Posted At: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 9:58 PM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Newbie holding questions
Subject: Newbie holding questions


"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:%D0vf.40496$QW2.15228@dukeread08...

But if no delay is expected and you have a radio failure
without an EFC, just how long are you expected to hold?


You're not expected to hold.



If you are given a clearance to hold w/o an EFC there is
still some delay expected, otherwise ATC would not issue a
hold.


If a delay was expected an EFC would have been issued.



Make them say how much delay or give an EFC/EAC time
or you'll be holding until the fuel runs out. Maybe the
book does not require ATC to issue a time, but my sense of
self-preservation wants to know.


How much delay? The answer is "None." The book says do not specify
an
EFC
if no delay is expected. If your sense of self-preservation can't
live
with
that don't fly IFR.

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 04:41:34 GMT, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"A Lieberman" wrote in message
...

I respectfully disagree as there is time frame in your book.taken from
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap4/aim0404.html

5. When no delay is expected, the controller should issue a clearance
beyond the fix as soon as possible and, whenever possible, at least
5 minutes before the aircraft reaches the clearance limit.

So, if you don't give me a clearance beyond my fix, then the pilot should
expecting an EFC if he has to hold over a fix.

In other words, as soon as I have to enter a hold, I should be expecting
an
EFC as now there is a delay. After all, you have me spinning in circles.

My expected time enroute does not include time to hold over a fix.


http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0406.html#4-6-1

See subparagraph c.

Which your reference further supports my position. If you clear me to a
fix, then I will not hear an EFC UNLESS I have to hold at that fix.

CLEARED TO (fix), NO DELAY EXPECTED.

From B-1 of your reference.

1. Holding instructions may be eliminated when you inform the pilot that no
delay is expected.

from above indicates I will not be put in a hold as I am not being
instructed to hold

If I have to hold, then the phraseology in the very same subsection C-1
supports this.

Taken from C - 1

1. When additional holding is expected at any other fix in your facility's
area, state the fix and your best estimate of the additional delay. When
more than one fix is involved, state the total additional en route delay
(omit specific fixes).

After all, you have me going in circles. I have not been cleared out of
the hold or beyond my hold fix. That EFC will assure that if "by the book"
my radio's go belly up, then I can be assured seperation.

I realize this is the book world and the real world, ATC would just rather
have me clear the airspace as safely as I can, and the transponder 7600
sure would indicate to ATC I have a communication problem.

After all, if I have a transponder, there is a good chance I have
operational NAV equipment too.

Bottom line based on what you provided, is that if I put in a holding
pattern, I better hear EFC or anticipate additional time in the clearance.
Without an EFC, technically, I am not cleared past my holding fix.

Every hold I have been put in (practice and the two times "real deal", I
have been given an EFC.

Allen

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 04:49:24 GMT, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

A stuck mic is not a situation where the radios have gone belly up, it's a
situation that illuminates a light on the panel and is soon rectified.

What light? You have not seen my radios? There are no lights anywhere.

Squelch set too high would be second in mind.


I don't set the squelch too high.

You don't yourself, but that's not to say it doesn't happen especially over
areas where you may be far from a transmitter.

Something could fry within the com unit....


...but wouldn't affect the other one.

a very real possibility. Otherwise, why would 7600 be an option on the
transponder? I have had to use the IDENT feature once when I had radio
problems. I could hear, but not transmit, so it does happen. I didn't
have to go 7600, since I was able to communicate via the IDENT button.

That is a controller manual, not for pilot's actions. As
PIC I will ask, nay demand the info I want and need.
91.185
(3) Leave clearance limit. (i) When the clearance limit is a
fix from which an approach begins, commence descent or
descent and approach as close as possible to the
expect-further-clearance time if one has been received, or
if one has not been received, as close as possible to the
estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or
amended (with ATC) estimated time en route.

(ii) If the clearance limit is not a fix from which an
approach begins, leave the clearance limit at the
expect-further-clearance time if one has been received, or
if none has been received, upon arrival over the clearance
limit, and proceed to a fix from which an approach begins
and commence descent or descent and approach as close as
possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from
the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time en route.

If you are IN the hold and have had a two-way communications
failure, your ETA has past, without a EFC/EAC time you are
stuck for a while. Certainly, if your transponder still
works, squawk. If you've had a total failure your
transponder will quit and that should get ATC attention.
You've got an emergency. But 2-way radio failure is not
supposed to be an emergency, there is a procedure. Part of
that procedure is the EFC, ask for it, it is your right as
PIC.




--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.



"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
message
ink.net...
|
| "A Lieberman" wrote in message
| ...
|
| I respectfully disagree as there is time frame in your
book.taken from
| http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap4/aim0404.html
|
| 5. When no delay is expected, the controller should
issue a clearance
| beyond the fix as soon as possible and, whenever
possible, at least
| 5 minutes before the aircraft reaches the clearance
limit.
|
| So, if you don't give me a clearance beyond my fix, then
the pilot should
| expecting an EFC if he has to hold over a fix.
|
| In other words, as soon as I have to enter a hold, I
should be expecting
| an
| EFC as now there is a delay. After all, you have me
spinning in circles.
|
| My expected time enroute does not include time to hold
over a fix.
|
|
| http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0406.html#4-6-1
|
| See subparagraph c.
|
|

Speed reduction is a better fix for that, a hold takes at
least 4 minutes, reducing speed is better.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
message
nk.net...
|
| "A Lieberman" wrote in message
| ...
|
| If no delay is expected, then why be put in the hold in
the first place?
|
|
| It's a tool of nonradar separation, it's called a "paper
stop". Let's say
| two aircraft are estimated to cross at a fix eight minutes
apart. Minimum
| separation is ten minutes, so some action must be taken.
The later aircraft
| is issued a hold prior to the common fix. Since the first
aircraft is
| expected to pass the common fix before the second aircraft
reaches the
| holding fix no delay is expected and no EFC is issued.
|
|
|
| If no EFC and radios go belly up while in IMC, when
would you know to
| leave
| the hold?
|
|
| Without an EFC I wouldn't enter the hold. It's a moot
point anyway,
| whatever caused my comm radios to go belly up will affect
my nav radios the
| same way and I won't be able to identify the holding fix.
|
|

Not all airplanes, particularly trainers have a transmit
light.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
message
news |
| "A Lieberman" wrote in message
| .. .
|
| Not true. Stuck mic comes to mind quickly.
|
|
| A stuck mic is not a situation where the radios have gone
belly up, it's a
| situation that illuminates a light on the panel and is
soon rectified.
|
|
|
| Squelch set too high would be second in mind.
|
|
| I don't set the squelch too high.
|
|
|
| Something could fry within the com unit....
|
|
| ...but wouldn't affect the other one.
|
|

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"A Lieberman" wrote in message
...

If no delay is expected, then why be put in the hold in the first place?



It's a tool of nonradar separation, it's called a "paper stop". Let's say
two aircraft are estimated to cross at a fix eight minutes apart. Minimum
separation is ten minutes, so some action must be taken. The later aircraft
is issued a hold prior to the common fix. Since the first aircraft is
expected to pass the common fix before the second aircraft reaches the
holding fix no delay is expected and no EFC is issued.



If no EFC and radios go belly up while in IMC, when would you know to
leave
the hold?



Without an EFC I wouldn't enter the hold. It's a moot point anyway,
whatever caused my comm radios to go belly up will affect my nav radios the
same way and I won't be able to identify the holding fix.


This happened to me very early in my IFR experience (it's still early,
but this was very early. I got cleared to an intermediate fix, "expect
no delay." They did not assign a hold. I had never gotten anything like
this before (I had hardly gotten anything at all before) and I asked for
an expect further clearance time, and they didn't have one. Since I
hadn't run into this, I made them give me an EFC time, they finally did,
but it took a lot of work (apparently) and they were clearly not happy.

Seems like I was wrong. Should I simply have proceeded to the fix, and
if I lost radio contact prior to getting there, proceeded as filed
immediately?

Brad