Instrument departure, non-IFR airport

Recently I tried to depart from an non-tower airport that has no
instrument approach procedure, and hence no instrument departure. I
was told that I could not get a clearance on the ground, even with
VIFNO etc., and that I would have to depart VFR and pick my clearance
up while airborne. The recommendation made to me by both TRACON and
local FSDO for departing IFR with a low ceiling was to get a special
VFR clearance into the towered airport 6 miles away [which has an
approach and then depart IFR from there.

My question is, if I take responsibility for staying away from the
rocks [assume a low ceiling, above the tops of small hills, but below
minimum vectoring altitude], shouln't I be able to get a clearance on
the ground?

Alan, PP-AMEL-IA

wrote:
Recently I tried to depart from an non-tower airport that has no
instrument approach procedure, and hence no instrument departure. I
was told that I could not get a clearance on the ground, even with
VIFNO etc., and that I would have to depart VFR and pick my clearance
up while airborne. The recommendation made to me by both TRACON and
local FSDO for departing IFR with a low ceiling was to get a special
VFR clearance into the towered airport 6 miles away [which has an
approach and then depart IFR from there.

My question is, if I take responsibility for staying away from the
rocks [assume a low ceiling, above the tops of small hills, but below
minimum vectoring altitude], shouln't I be able to get a clearance on
the ground?

Alan, PP-AMEL-IA


If controlled airspace was not involved you could do what you want.
But, the rub comes in them providing you a clearance into (presumably
1200-foot floor Class E airspace without some procedure that assures
obstacle clearance until reaching the minimum IFR altitude.

If you were out west in an area that is Class G below 14,500 they would
leave you to your own devices and tell you to maintain your assigned
altitude when entering controlled airspace. In that case that minimum
IFR altitude would usually be below 14,000 so you would enter an airway
laterally from Class G airspace.

Sam Spade wrote:
If controlled airspace was not involved you could do what you want.

Not true. The NTSB law judge said: "In that decision the law judge found
that respondent's takeoff from an uncontrolled airport into clouds without a
clearance or release from air traffic control (ATC) was not a violation of
14 C.F.R. 91.155(a), but was in violation of 14 C.F.R. 91.13(a). She
ordered a 90-day suspension of respondent's commercial pilot certificate in
lieu of the 180-day suspension sought in the Administrator's order. For the
reasons discussed below, we deny respondent's appeal and affirm the initial
decision."

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/3935.PDF

BTW: If anyone has an 'overuling' of this, please let me/us know.

Hilton

wrote:

Recently I tried to depart from an non-tower airport that has no
instrument approach procedure, and hence no instrument departure. I
was told that I could not get a clearance on the ground, even with
VIFNO etc., and that I would have to depart VFR and pick my clearance
up while airborne. The recommendation made to me by both TRACON and
local FSDO for departing IFR with a low ceiling was to get a special
VFR clearance into the towered airport 6 miles away [which has an
approach and then depart IFR from there.

My question is, if I take responsibility for staying away from the
rocks [assume a low ceiling, above the tops of small hills, but below
minimum vectoring altitude], shouln't I be able to get a clearance on
the ground?

Alan, PP-AMEL-IA


Yes, I used to do it all the time from 7N1. It is called a void time
clearance. Who told you that this couldn't be done?

You have are on your own, however, until you enter controlled airspace
so you have to realize that. The good thing is that they know you are
coming, have cleared a hole for you and will pick you up immediately
when you call.

Matt

Hilton wrote:

Sam Spade wrote:

If controlled airspace was not involved you could do what you want.


Not true. The NTSB law judge said: "In that decision the law judge found
that respondent's takeoff from an uncontrolled airport into clouds without a
clearance or release from air traffic control (ATC) was not a violation of
14 C.F.R. 91.155(a), but was in violation of 14 C.F.R. 91.13(a). She
ordered a 90-day suspension of respondent's commercial pilot certificate in
lieu of the 180-day suspension sought in the Administrator's order. For the
reasons discussed below, we deny respondent's appeal and affirm the initial
decision."

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/3935.PDF

BTW: If anyone has an 'overuling' of this, please let me/us know.

Hilton



Just shows how dumb the bureaucrats are in matters related to flying.

Matt

On Mar 1, 11:51 pm, wrote:

Recently I tried to depart from an non-tower airport that has no
instrument approach procedure, and hence no instrument departure. I
was told that I could not get a clearance on the ground, even with
VIFNO etc., and that I would have to depart VFR and pick my clearance
up while airborne. The recommendation made to me by both TRACON and
local FSDO for departing IFR with a low ceiling was to get a special
VFR clearance into the towered airport 6 miles away [which has an
approach and then depart IFR from there.

My question is, if I take responsibility for staying away from the
rocks [assume a low ceiling, above the tops of small hills, but below
minimum vectoring altitude], shouln't I be able to get a clearance on
the ground?


What's VIFNO? Did they say why they couldn't issue a clearance while
you were on the ground? It's not prohibited by FAAO 7110.65.

On Mar 2, 3:56 am, Sam Spade wrote:

If controlled airspace was not involved you could do what you want.
But, the rub comes in them providing you a clearance into (presumably
1200-foot floor Class E airspace without some procedure that assures
obstacle clearance until reaching the minimum IFR altitude.


Why is that a rub?

On Mar 2, 4:37 am, "Hilton" wrote:

Not true. The NTSB law judge said: "In that decision the law judge found
that respondent's takeoff from an uncontrolled airport into clouds without a
clearance or release from air traffic control (ATC) was not a violation of
14 C.F.R. 91.155(a), but was in violation of 14 C.F.R. 91.13(a). She
ordered a 90-day suspension of respondent's commercial pilot certificate in
lieu of the 180-day suspension sought in the Administrator's order. For the
reasons discussed below, we deny respondent's appeal and affirm the initial
decision."

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/3935.PDF

BTW: If anyone has an 'overuling' of this, please let me/us know.


That case was handled poorly.

The pilot claimed, "his operation was not careless because he took
several precautions: e.g., he broadcast his departure intentions on
the Unicom frequency; he monitored the ATC frequency for other
traffic; and he departed immediately after another aircraft which had
received an ATC release and clearance, thus claiming to have assured
himself that there would be no other IFR aircraft in the controlled
airspace above the airport." How does departing immediately after
another IFR aircraft ensure there will be no other IFR aircraft in the
controlled airspace above the airport?

The violation of 91.155 was dropped but probably should not have
been. The pilot says there were clouds at 200 feet, and based on the
other pilot's description of the weather it sounds like a solid layer,
but he was VFR when he reached Class E airspace at 700 AGL. VFR cloud
clearance in Class E airspace is 1000' above.

wrote:
Recently I tried to depart from an non-tower airport that has no
instrument approach procedure, and hence no instrument departure. I
was told that I could not get a clearance on the ground, even with
VIFNO etc., and that I would have to depart VFR and pick my clearance
up while airborne. The recommendation made to me by both TRACON and
local FSDO for departing IFR with a low ceiling was to get a special
VFR clearance into the towered airport 6 miles away [which has an
approach and then depart IFR from there.

My question is, if I take responsibility for staying away from the
rocks [assume a low ceiling, above the tops of small hills, but below
minimum vectoring altitude], shouln't I be able to get a clearance on
the ground?

Alan, PP-AMEL-IA

What was your point of departure on your Flight plan. The Non-IFR
airport or a IFR fix?
Michelle

Hilton wrote:
Sam Spade wrote:

If controlled airspace was not involved you could do what you want.


Not true. The NTSB law judge said: "In that decision the law judge found
that respondent's takeoff from an uncontrolled airport into clouds without a
clearance or release from air traffic control (ATC) was not a violation of
14 C.F.R. 91.155(a), but was in violation of 14 C.F.R. 91.13(a). She
ordered a 90-day suspension of respondent's commercial pilot certificate in
lieu of the 180-day suspension sought in the Administrator's order. For the
reasons discussed below, we deny respondent's appeal and affirm the initial
decision."

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/3935.PDF

BTW: If anyone has an 'overuling' of this, please let me/us know.

Hilton


When I said "do as you want" I did not mean without an air traffic
clearance. I meant you could roll your own ODP but have a "when
entering controlled airspace maintain X altitude, etc."