VOR approach SMO

On Jul 23, 5:07 pm, "pgbnh" wrote:
I think all but one of the posters have missed the fact that the MDA is not
1120 but 680. If indeed the vis was 3 miles, then the runway should have
been in sight from the MDA of 680 feet about a mile OUTSIDE of Culve.
(Remember what you can do once you have the runway in sight????) At which
point it's not a particularly big deal to lose 500 feet to land on the
numbers. Maybe even crossing Culve at 3-400 feet agl

Please, tell me how you read the plate in a way that you can cross
CULVE below 1120 when you don't have the airport in sight?
Note I am not an IA pilot, but I really want to understand this. My
reading of the plate is:

Cross CULVE at or above 1120. If you are DME equipped and radar, you
can then descend to 680. Otherwise you gotta remain at 1120. If you
get to the VOR before seeing the airport, you execute missed.

Now if the conditions are 800 overcast 3mi, how can you see the
airport before hitting CULVE unless you are below the crossing
restriction?

You can cross CULVE at 680 because the chart says "CULVE DME/RADAR MINIMA*
680-1"
You can descend to 680 past BEVEY. Look at the chart...........that's how
it's read.

Karl


"Doug Semler" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Jul 23, 5:07 pm, "pgbnh" wrote:
I think all but one of the posters have missed the fact that the MDA is
not
1120 but 680. If indeed the vis was 3 miles, then the runway should have
been in sight from the MDA of 680 feet about a mile OUTSIDE of Culve.
(Remember what you can do once you have the runway in sight????) At
which
point it's not a particularly big deal to lose 500 feet to land on the
numbers. Maybe even crossing Culve at 3-400 feet agl

Please, tell me how you read the plate in a way that you can cross
CULVE below 1120 when you don't have the airport in sight?
Note I am not an IA pilot, but I really want to understand this. My
reading of the plate is:

Cross CULVE at or above 1120. If you are DME equipped and radar, you
can then descend to 680. Otherwise you gotta remain at 1120. If you
get to the VOR before seeing the airport, you execute missed.

Now if the conditions are 800 overcast 3mi, how can you see the
airport before hitting CULVE unless you are below the crossing
restriction?

On Jul 23, 5:28 pm, "karl gruber" wrote:
You can cross CULVE at 680 because the chart says "CULVE DME/RADAR MINIMA*
680-1"
You can descend to 680 past BEVEY. Look at the chart...........that's how
it's read.


So, iff you have DME and RADAR, the _1120_ in profile view changes to
_680_, right?

That is a *bit* confusing.

Note this is a VOR or GPS approach. Sorry if I just assumed that there would
be on-board EITHER a DME or an IFR certified GPS that would provide the
distance-measuring requirements of the DME/Radar minima. Pretty good chance
the jet in question had both. And maybe you understand this, but youir
reference to Radar implies that maybe you do not. The 'Radar' reference is
NOT referring to whether the plane is radar equipped, but rather whether
there is radar coverage from the ground. Which in fact should allow an
aircraft WITHOUT DME to descend to 680 (if receiving advisories from the
tower/approach)
"Doug Semler" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Jul 23, 5:07 pm, "pgbnh" wrote:
I think all but one of the posters have missed the fact that the MDA is
not
1120 but 680. If indeed the vis was 3 miles, then the runway should have
been in sight from the MDA of 680 feet about a mile OUTSIDE of Culve.
(Remember what you can do once you have the runway in sight????) At
which
point it's not a particularly big deal to lose 500 feet to land on the
numbers. Maybe even crossing Culve at 3-400 feet agl

Please, tell me how you read the plate in a way that you can cross
CULVE below 1120 when you don't have the airport in sight?
Note I am not an IA pilot, but I really want to understand this. My
reading of the plate is:

Cross CULVE at or above 1120. If you are DME equipped and radar, you
can then descend to 680. Otherwise you gotta remain at 1120. If you
get to the VOR before seeing the airport, you execute missed.

Now if the conditions are 800 overcast 3mi, how can you see the
airport before hitting CULVE unless you are below the crossing
restriction?

Correct. That's why there's a little * next to the 1120*.


Karl
"Doug Semler" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jul 23, 5:28 pm, "karl gruber" wrote:
You can cross CULVE at 680 because the chart says "CULVE DME/RADAR
MINIMA*
680-1"
You can descend to 680 past BEVEY. Look at the chart...........that's how
it's read.


So, iff you have DME and RADAR, the _1120_ in profile view changes to
_680_, right?

That is a *bit* confusing.

Exactly, you don't need DME or GPS. ATC can tell you where CULVE
is........with THEIR Radar.


Karl


"pgbnh" wrote in message
. ..
Note this is a VOR or GPS approach. Sorry if I just assumed that there
would be on-board EITHER a DME or an IFR certified GPS that would provide
the distance-measuring requirements of the DME/Radar minima. Pretty good
chance the jet in question had both. And maybe you understand this, but
youir reference to Radar implies that maybe you do not. The 'Radar'
reference is NOT referring to whether the plane is radar equipped, but
rather whether there is radar coverage from the ground. Which in fact
should allow an aircraft WITHOUT DME to descend to 680 (if receiving
advisories from the tower/approach)
"Doug Semler" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Jul 23, 5:07 pm, "pgbnh" wrote:
I think all but one of the posters have missed the fact that the MDA is
not
1120 but 680. If indeed the vis was 3 miles, then the runway should have
been in sight from the MDA of 680 feet about a mile OUTSIDE of Culve.
(Remember what you can do once you have the runway in sight????) At
which
point it's not a particularly big deal to lose 500 feet to land on the
numbers. Maybe even crossing Culve at 3-400 feet agl

Please, tell me how you read the plate in a way that you can cross
CULVE below 1120 when you don't have the airport in sight?
Note I am not an IA pilot, but I really want to understand this. My
reading of the plate is:

Cross CULVE at or above 1120. If you are DME equipped and radar, you
can then descend to 680. Otherwise you gotta remain at 1120. If you
get to the VOR before seeing the airport, you execute missed.

Now if the conditions are 800 overcast 3mi, how can you see the
airport before hitting CULVE unless you are below the crossing
restriction?

On Jul 23, 2:07 pm, "pgbnh" wrote:
I think all but one of the posters have missed the fact that the MDA is not
1120 but 680.

Generally people who's method of explaining things starts by insulting
them, telling them that they don't know what they are doing, and then
explaining that he's much smarter than everyone else have a more
difficult time explaining things. Sadly, the one poster you referenced
uses this has his methodology. Let's all pray that he's not a CFI.

-Robert

On Jul 23, 2:12 pm, "karl gruber" wrote:
No.

You can be 6.7 miles out at 680/DME.

ATC certainly never offered that but I guess I never asked. They keep
you at 4,000 until about 3 miles outside of CULVE. Maybe for Burbank
traffic?? Remeber this is VERY busy airspace and ATC has very small
windows for you.

-Robert

In article ,
"karl gruber" wrote:

No.

You can be 6.7 miles out at 680/DME.

Maybe I'm just thick, but that's not how I read the chart.

After DARTS, you can descend to 2600. After BEVEY, you can descend to
1120. What happens after that depends on whether you can identify CULVE or
not. If you can identify CULVE, once you reach it, you can descend to 680.
Without CULVE, you have to stay at 1120 until you have the runway in sight.

Look at the plan view. There's a 863 tower at what looks like about 1/2
mile right of the FAC. I'm sure that's the controlling terrain for the
1120 MDA between BEVEY and CULVE.

To identify CULVE, you need one of two things: either DME in the aircraft,
or the tower has to be open AND you have to be in radar contact. It
doesn't explicitly say so on the chart, but I assume the tower has a BRITE
scope in the cab with CULVE marked on it and will call it for you on tower
frequency.

CULVE is 1.6 nm from the threshold. If you cross it at 1120, you're 945
feet AGL (referenced to the runway surface). So, to hit the numbers, you
need to keep a 590 ft/nm descent gradient from CULVE to the runway.
Looking at it another way, at 90 kts and no wind, you need an 885 ft/min
descent rate. That's fast, but not outrageously so. It's about twice as
steep as an ILS. It's certainly the kind of approach you need to brief
ahead of time and know what you're going to need to do before you get there.

In article
,
Hamish Reid wrote:

The other point is that you're on an approach with a lot of faster
aircraft behind you, and I'm sure the temptation is to keep going like a
bat out of hell right up until the MDA, at which point you don't have a
lot of time and space to slow down. That hasn't happened to me, but I
can understand why it might. I was asked for best forward speed all the
way from somewhere out near OHIGH to CULVE.

You worry about flying the approach and let ATC worry about the aircraft
behind you. If you're not comfortable flying it any faster than 90 kts,
when they ask you for best speed, just tell them 90 kts IS your best speed.
They'll deal with it.