Short Wings Gliders

On Jan 28, 9:43*am, Pat Russell wrote:
There is no substitute for span (TINFOS)...!

There is no substitute for getting your acronyms correct (TINSFGYAC)

how about TISNFOSIYCAI

Brad

At 17:43 28 January 2009, Pat Russell wrote:

There is no substitute for span (TINFOS)...!


There is no substitute for getting your acronyms correct (TINSFGYAC)


There Is No Substitute FOr Span = TINSFOS.

Sorry missed the S out!

Derek C

At 18:01 28 January 2009, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Jan 28, 9:30=A0am, Derek Copeland wrote:

Why not just make a one design, mass produced 15m glider (preferably
with
optional plug in 18m tips)...

Root bending moment scales something like exponentially with span,
regardless of whether the span is part of the orignial wing or added
later. So if you want to add 3m of span, you'd better design the wing
structure for it from the get-go.

We've already seen that even in what passes for mass production in the
glider world that the per-unit cost and price of a 15m ship are great
enough to severely limit the potential market, driving down production
rates and driving up per-unit costs. This is driven to some degree by
the complexity of the aircraft and the materials that go into it. It
is driven by a greater degree by the cost of the tooling, the amount
of floor space and volume it occupies, and by business expenses
relating to maintaining, heating, and lighting commensurate shop
space, and by wages and other labor costs. Big gliders require big
tools, and big tools require big shops, and the bigness seems to scale
with something like the square or the cube of the span.

The only thing I'm bringing to the party with my own 15m/18m design is
to keep overhead down to the barest of minimums and to offload a bunch
of the more labor intensive tasks of assembly, fitting, and finishing
to individual kit builders. The RV series of homebuilt airplanes
suggests that there is a great deal of manufacturing capacity
available in that market.

My interest in smaller gliders is chiefly in that they would fit into
smaller shops and smaller garages, opening up more potential market
for kit sailplanes. I also think that the potential kit market might
be more receptive to simplifications such as 90-degree landing flaps
instead of airbrakes as we saw with the Schreder HP kits and the
Monerai.

Thanks, Bob K.


The Silent 2 Targa is a fine flying machine and the kit is very straight
forward. I built mine in just under one year. However, the Euro/Dollar
rate is a killer!

Mike

On Jan 27, 10:09*pm, RRK wrote:
There is a proposal of creating 13.5 class on IGC agenda on their *next
meeting in Laussane.

http://www.fai.org/gliding/system/fi...8_3_1_Proposal...

Haven't we got a big enough mess with too many FAI classes ?
All with little performance difference (other than the failed world-
class experiment).
Tooling and engineering for a new glider costs millions.
This must be paid for, by us, over a small production run for each
glider.
More classes = even more fragmentation = smaller production runs =
higher costs.

Aaaarrrgggg....

On Jan 28, 6:01*pm, DRN wrote:
On Jan 27, 10:09*pm, RRK wrote:

There is a proposal of creating 13.5 class on IGC agenda on their *next
meeting in Laussane.

http://www.fai.org/gliding/system/fi...8_3_1_Proposal...

Haven't we got a big enough mess with too many FAI classes ?
All with little performance difference (other than the failed world-
class experiment).
Tooling and engineering for a new glider costs millions.
This must be paid for, by us, over a small production run for each
glider.
More classes = even more fragmentation = smaller production runs =
higher costs.

Aaaarrrgggg....

Dave,

It's still winter........................

Brad

On Jan 28, 11:45*am, Dan Silent wrote:
At 16:34 28 January 2009, Bob Kuykendall wrote:

Short Wings Gliders:

much less expensive to tow

In theory, yes. In practice, this hasn't been the case yet.

Certainly not in North America!
But in France sometime they charge tows by the minutes and not by the
feet............
Then it makes a big difference!

PS: always very very interesting to read your writing......
looking forward to see the HP24 flying soon!!!

Daniel Scopel
Silent 2 Targa
C-GODY serial 2027
Volez souvent et soyez prudent.http://pages. videotron. com/dscopel/

I personally would like to see the FAI create a new "Fun Class" that
would be a handicapped class. I would suggest that the class include
all gliders (regardless of span) with a handicap rating rating of
about plus or minus 5 percent of the present World Class (PW-5).

In the last ten years, I have flown PW-5s more than 1000 hours and
over 30,000 miles cross country. I have had a lot of fun flying at
thirty to one.

Bill Snead
6W

At 02:01 29 January 2009, DRN wrote:
On Jan 27, 10:09=A0pm, RRK wrote:
There is a proposal of creating 13.5 class on IGC
meeting in Lausanne.


http://www.fai.org/gliding/system/fi...8_3_1_Proposal...

Haven't we got a big enough mess with too many FAI classes ?

yes, you are right!!!
think about the PIK without spoilers, so designed to win,
and it did..... but what a mistake to have such a solid
and durable sailplane with flaps and no spoilers because of a new class or
a new regulation!

All with little performance difference (other than the failed
world-class experiment).

yes, you are right!!!
the world-class is a failure, only 200 pewe built, nobody likes it and she
scares people away!!!

Tooling and engineering for a new glider costs millions.
This must be paid for, by us, over a small production run
for each glider.
More classes even more fragmentation smaller production
runs higher costs.

yes, you are right!!!
BUT YOU MISS THE POINT!
the Short Wings Gliders are already here............
20 different models, maybe more,
old, new, light, heavy, sleek, ugly, fabric, carbon, etc.
no need to built a new one,
world-class simply will change name and all pewe will
fly with all other Short Wings.
It is as simple as this.
TINS4WS, so Short Wings Gliders will flock together and have fun. Of
course they will keep complaining about handicaps, rules and other sh*t,
but nobody will ever ask you to built another glider.
(Antares to date has more bankruptcies then models.)
But maybe the Chinese will come up with something.
..........another white 25 cm today...............

Dan Silent wrote:
At 02:01 29 January 2009, DRN wrote:
On Jan 27, 10:09=A0pm, RRK wrote:
There is a proposal of creating 13.5 class on IGC
meeting in Lausanne.


http://www.fai.org/gliding/system/fi...8_3_1_Proposal...

Haven't we got a big enough mess with too many FAI classes ?

yes, you are right!!!
think about the PIK without spoilers, so designed to win,
and it did..... but what a mistake to have such a solid
and durable sailplane with flaps and no spoilers because of a new class or
a new regulation!

All with little performance difference (other than the failed
world-class experiment).

yes, you are right!!!
the world-class is a failure, only 200 pewe built, nobody likes it and she
scares people away!!!

Tooling and engineering for a new glider costs millions.
This must be paid for, by us, over a small production run
for each glider.
More classes even more fragmentation smaller production
runs higher costs.

yes, you are right!!!
BUT YOU MISS THE POINT!
the Short Wings Gliders are already here............
20 different models, maybe more,
old, new, light, heavy, sleek, ugly, fabric, carbon, etc.
no need to built a new one,
world-class simply will change name and all pewe will
fly with all other Short Wings.
It is as simple as this.
TINS4WS, so Short Wings Gliders will flock together and have fun. Of
course they will keep complaining about handicaps, rules and other sh*t,
but nobody will ever ask you to built another glider.
(Antares to date has more bankruptcies then models.)
But maybe the Chinese will come up with something.
.........another white 25 cm today...............


I would be surprised if they ever get enough gliders together to have a
contest. If you are into racing, you will buy something with at least
15 meters of span.

On Jan 28, 8:52*pm, Greg Arnold wrote:
Dan Silent wrote:
At 02:01 29 January 2009, DRN wrote:
On Jan 27, 10:09=A0pm, RRK *wrote:
There is a proposal of creating 13.5 class on IGC
meeting in Lausanne.

http://www.fai.org/gliding/system/fi...8_3_1_Proposal...

Haven't we got a big enough mess with too many FAI classes ?

yes, you are right!!!
think about the PIK without spoilers, so designed to win,
and it did..... but what a mistake to have such a solid
and durable sailplane with flaps and no spoilers because of a new class or
a new regulation!

All with little performance difference (other than the failed
world-class experiment).

yes, you are right!!!
the world-class is a failure, only 200 pewe built, nobody likes it and she
scares people away!!!

Tooling and engineering for a new glider costs millions.
This must be paid for, by us, over a small production run
for each glider.
More classes even more fragmentation smaller production
runs higher costs.

yes, you are right!!!
BUT YOU MISS THE POINT!
the Short Wings Gliders are already here............
20 different models, maybe more,
old, new, light, heavy, sleek, ugly, fabric, carbon, etc.
no need to built a new one,
world-class simply will change name and all pewe will
fly with all other Short Wings.
It is as simple as this.
TINS4WS, so Short Wings Gliders will flock together and have fun. Of
course they will keep complaining about handicaps, rules and other sh*t,
but nobody will ever ask you to built another glider.
(Antares to date has more bankruptcies then models.)
But maybe the Chinese will come up with something.
.........another white 25 cm today...............

I would be surprised if they ever get enough gliders together to have a
contest. *If you are into racing, you will buy something with at least
15 meters of span.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I would posit that the racing guys are a very small percentage of the
total population of sailplane pilots. But, they have an overwhelming
impact on the sport in terms of being catered to by the manufacturers.

Brad

Brad wrote:
On Jan 28, 8:52 pm, Greg Arnold wrote:
Dan Silent wrote:
At 02:01 29 January 2009, DRN wrote:
On Jan 27, 10:09=A0pm, RRK wrote:
There is a proposal of creating 13.5 class on IGC
meeting in Lausanne.
http://www.fai.org/gliding/system/fi...8_3_1_Proposal...
Haven't we got a big enough mess with too many FAI classes ?
yes, you are right!!!
think about the PIK without spoilers, so designed to win,
and it did..... but what a mistake to have such a solid
and durable sailplane with flaps and no spoilers because of a new class or
a new regulation!
All with little performance difference (other than the failed
world-class experiment).
yes, you are right!!!
the world-class is a failure, only 200 pewe built, nobody likes it and she
scares people away!!!
Tooling and engineering for a new glider costs millions.
This must be paid for, by us, over a small production run
for each glider.
More classes even more fragmentation smaller production
runs higher costs.
yes, you are right!!!
BUT YOU MISS THE POINT!
the Short Wings Gliders are already here............
20 different models, maybe more,
old, new, light, heavy, sleek, ugly, fabric, carbon, etc.
no need to built a new one,
world-class simply will change name and all pewe will
fly with all other Short Wings.
It is as simple as this.
TINS4WS, so Short Wings Gliders will flock together and have fun. Of
course they will keep complaining about handicaps, rules and other sh*t,
but nobody will ever ask you to built another glider.
(Antares to date has more bankruptcies then models.)
But maybe the Chinese will come up with something.
.........another white 25 cm today...............
I would be surprised if they ever get enough gliders together to have a
contest. If you are into racing, you will buy something with at least
15 meters of span.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I would posit that the racing guys are a very small percentage of the
total population of sailplane pilots. But, they have an overwhelming
impact on the sport in terms of being catered to by the manufacturers.

Brad

The point I was trying to make was that they are talking about creating
a 13.5 meter racing class that won't have anyone racing in it.