Variations in soft field landings

On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 22:10:06 GMT, Matt Whiting
wrote:

Maxwell wrote:
I was taught to lift the flaps immediately upon touch down on soft field
landings. My instructors stated getting more weight on the brakes as soon as
possible, would facilitate a quicker stop than leaving the flaps down for
drag, and loosing some braking power to the extra lift.

However, during my last BFR, the instructor corrected me very sharply. He
insisted you get more drag from the flaps by leaving them down until you
slowed to taxi speed, than the benefit of more weight on the brakes.

What is the general consensus of the group? Flaps up or down, after
touchdown on a soft field landing?

You definitely should not raise the flaps on a soft field landing! Are
you sure you aren't thinking of a short field landing instead? Even
then, I wouldn't recommend it although I do know CFIs who do make this
recommendation. However, I've never heard such a recommendation for a
soft field. Trust me, braking isn't a problem on a truly soft field!

FWIW, 172S and 182T checklists both say flaps up after landing for
short field to get weight on wheels and better breaking.

I wouldn't pull the flaps on soft either, the last thing you want on a
soft field is extra weight to dig in the wheels and heavy breaking....

Erik wrote:
Maxwell wrote:

I was taught to lift the flaps immediately upon touch down on soft
field landings. My instructors stated getting more weight on the
brakes as soon as possible, would facilitate a quicker stop than
leaving the flaps down for drag, and loosing some braking power to the
extra lift.

However, during my last BFR, the instructor corrected me very sharply.
He insisted you get more drag from the flaps by leaving them down
until you slowed to taxi speed, than the benefit of more weight on the
brakes.

What is the general consensus of the group? Flaps up or down, after
touchdown on a soft field landing?


Regardless of the type of landing, even short field or soft, I've
always been taught to clean up the aircraft after I'm clear of the
runway. I don't touch anything until then. So, keep them down, I've
been taught.


Yes, that is how I was taught, but it appears that later model Cessna's
recommend differently.

Matt

Maxwell wrote:

What is the general consensus of the group? Flaps up or down, after
touchdown on a soft field landing?

what does the POH say? if it says anything about it, that's what you
do; if the POH doesn't say anything, what does the FAA says, i.e.,
chapter 8.17 of the Airplane Flying Handbook (FAA-H-8083-3A)

In either case, politely remind the instructor that this is a *soft*
landing and not a *short* landing so effective braking is not an issue
(on a real soft field, slowing down will be taken care of by the field,
don't worry about it :-)

--Sylvain

"Maxwell" wrote in message
m...
I was taught to lift the flaps immediately upon touch down on soft field
landings. My instructors stated getting more weight on the brakes as soon
as possible, would facilitate a quicker stop than leaving the flaps down
for drag, and loosing some braking power to the extra lift.

However, during my last BFR, the instructor corrected me very sharply. He
insisted you get more drag from the flaps by leaving them down until you
slowed to taxi speed, than the benefit of more weight on the brakes.

What is the general consensus of the group? Flaps up or down, after
touchdown on a soft field landing?


Yes, my mistake guy. I did mean short field landing.

"Sylvain" wrote in message
t...
Maxwell wrote:

What is the general consensus of the group? Flaps up or down, after
touchdown on a soft field landing?

what does the POH say? if it says anything about it, that's what you
do; if the POH doesn't say anything, what does the FAA says, i.e.,
chapter 8.17 of the Airplane Flying Handbook (FAA-H-8083-3A)


The POH is a little unclear. It does list "flaps up" as the last item on the
check list, but it doesn't clairify "upon" touch down.

Maxwell wrote:
"Sylvain" wrote in message


The POH is a little unclear. It does list "flaps up" as the last item on the
check list, but it doesn't clairify "upon" touch down.



The POH is not the place to go to attain max performance for something
like a soft or short field landing.

Newps wrote:

The POH is not the place to go to attain max performance for something
like a soft or short field landing.

I would still prefer what the POH says to any amount of advice heard during
hangar flying and/or read on internet. Moreover if an instructor says
something that contradicts the POH and/or the Airplane Flying Handbook,
that instructor would have to come up with a really good explanation if
s/he wants to see me as a customer again.

--Sylvain

Sylvain wrote:

Newps wrote:


The POH is not the place to go to attain max performance for something
like a soft or short field landing.


I would still prefer what the POH says to any amount of advice heard during
hangar flying and/or read on internet. Moreover if an instructor says
something that contradicts the POH and/or the Airplane Flying Handbook,
that instructor would have to come up with a really good explanation if
s/he wants to see me as a customer again.


You need an instructor that plays in the dirt alot. I'm not an
instructor but I will outperform any of your typical college flyboy
instructors for short field landings. That's what I'm good at, but
don't ask me to help you fly a turn around a point. The POH is general
info, you want to do it at a higher level of performance you find the
people who do it all the time. Some of them may even be instructors,
like the people in McCall, ID.

"Newps" wrote in message
. ..


Sylvain wrote:

Newps wrote:


The POH is not the place to go to attain max performance for something
like a soft or short field landing.


I would still prefer what the POH says to any amount of advice heard
during
hangar flying and/or read on internet. Moreover if an instructor says
something that contradicts the POH and/or the Airplane Flying Handbook,
that instructor would have to come up with a really good explanation if
s/he wants to see me as a customer again.


You need an instructor that plays in the dirt alot. I'm not an instructor
but I will outperform any of your typical college flyboy instructors for
short field landings. That's what I'm good at, but don't ask me to help
you fly a turn around a point. The POH is general info, you want to do it
at a higher level of performance you find the people who do it all the
time. Some of them may even be instructors, like the people in McCall,
ID.

Actually I agree with both of you, and no, that instructor with never see me
again for a number of reasons. I just don't know where it got his info and
thought maybe there was so new thinking on the subject. It's been 35 years
since I got my PPL, so I try to keep my eyes open.

back when we had 40 - 50 - or 60 degrees of flaps available we didn't always
raise them even for short field landings. At 60 degrees and full back
elevator the O-1 would almost hover to a landing, brakes were kind of
ornamental at times.

The point is it all depends on the aircraft you're flying, the surface
friction, and where you want to turn-off. There shouldn't be a pedantic
mantra that you follow regardless of circumstance.

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas
"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Maxwell wrote:
I was taught to lift the flaps immediately upon touch down on soft field
landings. My instructors stated getting more weight on the brakes as soon
as possible, would facilitate a quicker stop than leaving the flaps down
for drag, and loosing some braking power to the extra lift.

However, during my last BFR, the instructor corrected me very sharply. He
insisted you get more drag from the flaps by leaving them down until you
slowed to taxi speed, than the benefit of more weight on the brakes.

What is the general consensus of the group? Flaps up or down, after
touchdown on a soft field landing?

You definitely should not raise the flaps on a soft field landing! Are
you sure you aren't thinking of a short field landing instead? Even then,
I wouldn't recommend it although I do know CFIs who do make this
recommendation. However, I've never heard such a recommendation for a
soft field. Trust me, braking isn't a problem on a truly soft field!


Matt