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#1
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Martin Kosina wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote: After having both a vac pump failure and an AI failure (not on the same flight ) I decided its really time for a backup. I had a similar revelation recently, after a challenging IPC at night and a quiet reflection on a AI that did fail one me, albeit on a nice day. Did lot of soul searching and decided to postpone a GPS upgrade in favor of some attitude information backup first. Dave Butler wrote: FWIW, I have an electric AI in my Mooney and I wouldn't do it again. It's expensive, failure prone, and too far out of my scan to be useful as a backup. Did you have a lot of problems with the electric AI ? I am also considering one (the dual pumps sound promising, but still don't back up the gyro...), so I am curious how they hold up (the RCA-26 series or the non-TSO'd Falcon, the AIM / Midcontinet stuff is just too expensive). I heard mixed reviews on the RC Allen, some people have had them for years without any problems and some claim they they don't hold up as well as quality vacuum gyros. The electric gyro in my Mooney was installed before I bought into the partnership, so I don't know all the details, but I think it's been in there about 10 years or so, and has been overhauled twice. Each overhaul cost about the same as the original purchase price. Sorry, I don't know which brand it is. If I can find out, I'll post it. The installation in my airplane is over on the copilot's side, so it's way out of my scan and therefore pretty much worthless. I'd go partial panel with the turn coordinator and mag compass before I'd try to use a gauge so far out of my scan. If you install an electric, be sure to put it where you can see it. Dave Remove SHIRT to reply directly. Re Falcon, I strongly considered the possibility (337 or not), but with a custom tilt they are over $1100 (Chief), not *that* cheap considering a brand new RCA goes for $1650 at the discounters (like Spruce), factory tilt included and less paperwork hassle. Still, $500 is money, so if they are OK, might be worth considering. There seems to be very little info on them besides the manufacturer, unfortunately.... Thanks, Martin -- Dave Butler, software engineer 919-392-4367 |
#2
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Dave Butler wrote:
Martin Kosina wrote: Robert M. Gary wrote: After having both a vac pump failure and an AI failure (not on the same flight ) I decided its really time for a backup. I had a similar revelation recently, after a challenging IPC at night and a quiet reflection on a AI that did fail one me, albeit on a nice day. Did lot of soul searching and decided to postpone a GPS upgrade in favor of some attitude information backup first. Dave Butler wrote: FWIW, I have an electric AI in my Mooney and I wouldn't do it again. It's expensive, failure prone, and too far out of my scan to be useful as a backup. Did you have a lot of problems with the electric AI ? I am also considering one (the dual pumps sound promising, but still don't back up the gyro...), so I am curious how they hold up (the RCA-26 series or the non-TSO'd Falcon, the AIM / Midcontinet stuff is just too expensive). I heard mixed reviews on the RC Allen, some people have had them for years without any problems and some claim they they don't hold up as well as quality vacuum gyros. The electric gyro in my Mooney was installed before I bought into the partnership, so I don't know all the details, but I think it's been in there about 10 years or so, and has been overhauled twice. Each overhaul cost about the same as the original purchase price. Sorry, I don't know which brand it is. If I can find out, I'll post it. Followup after talking to one of my partners: We're pretty sure it's an RC Allen. It's been in a little longer than I thought, more like 12 years instead of 10. It's been repaired twice in the 12 years. The first time was relatively reasonable and cost a few hundred dollars. The second time was over a thousand and was called an 'overhaul'. The overhaul was done by Kelly Instruments. My partner's feeling is that the reliability and repair cost was no different from any typical gyro. The net is that maybe it's not as bad as I thought. The installation in my airplane is over on the copilot's side, so it's way out of my scan and therefore pretty much worthless. I'd go partial panel with the turn coordinator and mag compass before I'd try to use a gauge so far out of my scan. If you install an electric, be sure to put it where you can see it. Dave Remove SHIRT to reply directly. Re Falcon, I strongly considered the possibility (337 or not), but with a custom tilt they are over $1100 (Chief), not *that* cheap considering a brand new RCA goes for $1650 at the discounters (like Spruce), factory tilt included and less paperwork hassle. Still, $500 is money, so if they are OK, might be worth considering. There seems to be very little info on them besides the manufacturer, unfortunately.... Thanks, Martin -- Dave Butler, software engineer 919-392-4367 |
#3
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Followup after talking to one of my partners: We're pretty sure it's an RC
Allen. It's been in a little longer than I thought, more like 12 years instead of 10. It's been repaired twice in the 12 years. The first time was relatively reasonable and cost a few hundred dollars. The second time was over a thousand and was called an 'overhaul'. The overhaul was done by Kelly Instruments. My partner's feeling is that the reliability and repair cost was no different from any typical gyro. The net is that maybe it's not as bad as I thought. The installation in my airplane is over on the copilot's side, so it's way out of my scan and therefore pretty much worthless. I'd go partial panel with the turn coordinator and mag compass before I'd try to use a gauge so far out of my scan. If you install an electric, be sure to put it where you can see it. Dave, thanks for the feedback ! Sounds like RCA, Kelly Inst. is the manufacturer of that brand. I bit the bullet and got one, will put it just right of the center stack for now, but I could also go into what is now the #2 CDI spot and move that to the right. That would look a bit funny, but may make for a much better cross-check. In any case, I'll definitely practice with it before considering it a solid backup. Martin |
#4
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There are some non-TSO's EFIS systems around for under $2000! I saw
one at Oshkosh and was impressed! No moving parts, fully electronic. Check out http://www.dynonavionics.com Doug |
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#7
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#8
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Robert,
There was a recent article in Aviation Consumer about this (not sure if you subscribe): http://www.aviationconsumer.com/arch...ty/5307-1.html Among other things, they discuss: dual chamber vac with a backup gyro and PDA-style all electronic backups. If memory serves, a dual chamber vac with a backup gyro is not terribly expensive and probably wouldn't require fancy paperwork. I think they quote a price in the ballpark of $2000 for that solution. The PDA-style all electronic solution is a bit more pricey and wouldn't be panel mount. mark "Robert M. Gary" wrote in message om... After having both a vac pump failure and an AI failure (not on the same flight ) I decided its really time for a backup. I always consider my Mooney to be an "IFR anytime" type of plane, in that I consider it a solid IFR platform. When the vac pump goes out alarms starting sounding, my voice annunicator starting saying "check vac pressure" and the needle goes to 0. It's pretty obvious. I do a voluntary IPC every 6 months with a local DE and always do partial panel approaches so I'm as comfortable as you can be with that. A couple weeks ago I had my AI go out. WOW, that's another story!! The thing slowly rolled 30 degrees off and REMAINED RESPONSIVE!! When I banked, it banked, when I pitched, it piched. Figuring out that it was dead could be hard and it would be easy to miss it. I decided I need a back up and those vac backup systems are a waste of money(Precise Flight, electric vac, etc). After getting it back from overhaul my partner reported that it did it again! I called a couple gyro places and they said the vac AIs don't last very long because they have a stream of "dirty" air running through them. The electrics last much longer. So I'm getting an electric AI installed as my backup. I noticed that the non-TSO'd electric AIs are almost $1000 less than the TSO'd ones. I asked my mechanics and the FSDO and they said I could probably get a 337 approved by the FSDO for a non-TSO'd unit as long as it wasn't in the "T" area of the panel. One FSDO guy said I might need to label it "VFR only" and I'd have to promise not to do 135. In either case I'll end up having an electric backup AI for under $1500. That's less than the price of a backup electric vac pump installed about about the same price to put a Precise Flight in a Mooney (with California labor rates of $95/hr ) with twice the redundency. -Robert |
#9
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Mark Astley wrote:
Robert, There was a recent article in Aviation Consumer about this (not sure if you subscribe): http://www.aviationconsumer.com/arch...ty/5307-1.html Among other things, they discuss: dual chamber vac with a backup gyro and PDA-style all electronic backups. If memory serves, a dual chamber vac with a backup gyro is not terribly expensive and probably wouldn't require fancy paperwork. I think they quote a price in the ballpark of $2000 for that solution. The PDA-style all electronic solution is a bit more pricey and wouldn't be panel mount. Aviation Consumer's original article on the subject, written by Coy Jacobs, was pretty negative on the dual vacuum pump. In a later article, maybe the one referenced above, they were more positive about it. I think I paid $745 for the dual rotor pump on an "Oshkosh Special" price. AeroAdvantage says 4-8 hours to install, mine took 6 hours on an M20J. Dave Remove SHIRT to reply directly. mark "Robert M. Gary" wrote in message om... After having both a vac pump failure and an AI failure (not on the same flight ) I decided its really time for a backup. I always consider my Mooney to be an "IFR anytime" type of plane, in that I consider it a solid IFR platform. When the vac pump goes out alarms starting sounding, my voice annunicator starting saying "check vac pressure" and the needle goes to 0. It's pretty obvious. I do a voluntary IPC every 6 months with a local DE and always do partial panel approaches so I'm as comfortable as you can be with that. A couple weeks ago I had my AI go out. WOW, that's another story!! The thing slowly rolled 30 degrees off and REMAINED RESPONSIVE!! When I banked, it banked, when I pitched, it piched. Figuring out that it was dead could be hard and it would be easy to miss it. I decided I need a back up and those vac backup systems are a waste of money(Precise Flight, electric vac, etc). After getting it back from overhaul my partner reported that it did it again! I called a couple gyro places and they said the vac AIs don't last very long because they have a stream of "dirty" air running through them. The electrics last much longer. So I'm getting an electric AI installed as my backup. I noticed that the non-TSO'd electric AIs are almost $1000 less than the TSO'd ones. I asked my mechanics and the FSDO and they said I could probably get a 337 approved by the FSDO for a non-TSO'd unit as long as it wasn't in the "T" area of the panel. One FSDO guy said I might need to label it "VFR only" and I'd have to promise not to do 135. In either case I'll end up having an electric backup AI for under $1500. That's less than the price of a backup electric vac pump installed about about the same price to put a Precise Flight in a Mooney (with California labor rates of $95/hr ) with twice the redundency. -Robert -- Dave Butler, software engineer 919-392-4367 |
#10
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Dave Butler wrote in message ...
Mark Astley wrote: Robert, There was a recent article in Aviation Consumer about this (not sure if you subscribe): http://www.aviationconsumer.com/arch...ty/5307-1.html Among other things, they discuss: dual chamber vac with a backup gyro and PDA-style all electronic backups. If memory serves, a dual chamber vac with a backup gyro is not terribly expensive and probably wouldn't require fancy paperwork. I think they quote a price in the ballpark of $2000 for that solution. The PDA-style all electronic solution is a bit more pricey and wouldn't be panel mount. Aviation Consumer's original article on the subject, written by Coy Jacobs, was pretty negative on the dual vacuum pump. It seems that Coy likes the items that he sells in his shop and tends to not like the items that are not sold in his shop. I've never been very happy with his objectivity. The whole scandal with the CorrosionX vs the competitor was a good reason for me to drop the subscriptions. Clearly he was going after the company that didn't want to let him resell their goo (in my opinion). -Robert |
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