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Weight and balance..
Stones x Cubits = Moment?
I just couldn't resist... ;-) Congrats on the ticket. Bart Anne-Marie Maddison wrote: Finally re'c my ppl h license from the CAA , had to wait over 3 weeks for them to process it - that was a long 3 weeks as i wanted to go flying with friends..Anyway , took my first passenger out who works at the flight school - studying for his CPL - wanted an experienced first passenger to see what it was like . This guy is light in weight and fflight was fine.... Took another friend to the School on Friday for a fly , we were going out in my Robinson r 22 beta 2 . I'm doing my pre-flights and was shocked to find we were out of balance . I'm 14 stone and my pal is 16 stone . It worked out that we could poss get around half gallon of fuel approx 3lbs on board ,not even enough to deal with start up and shut down . Whilst i understand weight is an issue ,i was amazed to see this . My instructor is very light - 150lbs and my passenger was 224lbs.I have many large framed friends who i have told i will take for a jolly , now i've got to ask them to lose a few pounds before we can fly.. We ended up changing to an older machine that has the 320 engine that is lighter and managed to go for a short flight,still being restricted to a light fuel load .My friend enjoyed the flight immensly . Having it basically thrust in my face like that, I have learned a valuable lesson early on about weight and balance........ cheers Ben |
#2
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that we could poss get around half gallon of fuel approx 3lbs on board ,not even enough to deal with start up and shut down . Whilst i understand weight is an issue ,i was amazed to see this . My instructor is very light - 150lbs and my passenger was 224lbs.I have many large framed friends who i have told i will take for a jolly , now i've got to ask them to lose a few pounds before we can fly.. Surely the problem is weight rather than balance -- as the fuel is behind the mast you'd be better to have more rather than less fuel to move the CG backwards unless weight was the issue. I remember my problem was compounded with aft cyclic movement issues due to my beer gut :-) We ended up changing to an older machine that has the 320 engine that is lighter and managed to go for a short flight,still being restricted to a light fuel load . Strange -- I had always thought the HP had the battery in the front (or was that just the Mariner)? I seem to remember HPs "kneel down" more on lifting than the later Beta 2. Solution? Type conversion to an R44.... Regards Andrew (who learned to fly at 240lbs with a 170 lb tutor and not much more than a prayer in the tank :-) -- Inweb Networks. Quality internet and telecoms services Sales: 08000 612222 Support: 08704322222. http://www.inweb.co.uk E1 call share - 65%. 0800, 0845 and 0870 numbers - best rates. Resellers welcome |
#3
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Could you actually run out of cyclic before running out of fuel and if you
ever got into that situation would a safe or survivable landing be possible. e.g running landing or ditching. Mike Williams (non pilot) "Andrew Crane" wrote in message ... that we could poss get around half gallon of fuel approx 3lbs on board ,not even enough to deal with start up and shut down . Whilst i understand weight is an issue ,i was amazed to see this . My instructor is very light - 150lbs and my passenger was 224lbs.I have many large framed friends who i have told i will take for a jolly , now i've got to ask them to lose a few pounds before we can fly.. Surely the problem is weight rather than balance -- as the fuel is behind the mast you'd be better to have more rather than less fuel to move the CG backwards unless weight was the issue. I remember my problem was compounded with aft cyclic movement issues due to my beer gut :-) We ended up changing to an older machine that has the 320 engine that is lighter and managed to go for a short flight,still being restricted to a light fuel load . Strange -- I had always thought the HP had the battery in the front (or was that just the Mariner)? I seem to remember HPs "kneel down" more on lifting than the later Beta 2. Solution? Type conversion to an R44.... Regards Andrew (who learned to fly at 240lbs with a 170 lb tutor and not much more than a prayer in the tank :-) -- Inweb Networks. Quality internet and telecoms services Sales: 08000 612222 Support: 08704322222. http://www.inweb.co.uk E1 call share - 65%. 0800, 0845 and 0870 numbers - best rates. Resellers welcome |
#4
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Mike
the way i understand it is ( not an expert though ) ,if the heli isn't in balance to manufacturers recomendations then you can run out of cyclic.That is the way i have had it explained to me . You would run out of cyclic straight away because you are out of balance. cheers Ben "Mike Williams" wrote in message ... Could you actually run out of cyclic before running out of fuel and if you ever got into that situation would a safe or survivable landing be possible. e.g running landing or ditching. Mike Williams (non pilot) "Andrew Crane" wrote in message ... that we could poss get around half gallon of fuel approx 3lbs on board ,not even enough to deal with start up and shut down . Whilst i understand weight is an issue ,i was amazed to see this . My instructor is very light - 150lbs and my passenger was 224lbs.I have many large framed friends who i have told i will take for a jolly , now i've got to ask them to lose a few pounds before we can fly.. Surely the problem is weight rather than balance -- as the fuel is behind the mast you'd be better to have more rather than less fuel to move the CG backwards unless weight was the issue. I remember my problem was compounded with aft cyclic movement issues due to my beer gut :-) We ended up changing to an older machine that has the 320 engine that is lighter and managed to go for a short flight,still being restricted to a light fuel load . Strange -- I had always thought the HP had the battery in the front (or was that just the Mariner)? I seem to remember HPs "kneel down" more on lifting than the later Beta 2. Solution? Type conversion to an R44.... Regards Andrew (who learned to fly at 240lbs with a 170 lb tutor and not much more than a prayer in the tank :-) -- Inweb Networks. Quality internet and telecoms services Sales: 08000 612222 Support: 08704322222. http://www.inweb.co.uk E1 call share - 65%. 0800, 0845 and 0870 numbers - best rates. Resellers welcome |
#5
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"Mike Williams" wrote in message ... Could you actually run out of cyclic before running out of fuel and if you ever got into that situation would a safe or survivable landing be possible. e.g running landing or ditching. Breathe in :-) The nice thing about the Robinsons is you have the option to raise the cyclic up to your chin to get the extra stick travel required. Your limitations with the weight too far forward a - reduced aft stick movement available - reduced clearance between tailboom and rotors - reduced flap/mast clearance The worst thing is if you're going cross country with lots of people/weight and full tanks. As you burn the petrol off, you're unaware of the change in balance because you have a fair amount of forward stick to maintain cruise speed. It's only when you get to the destination you realise things are becoming uncomfortable. If weight and balance are going to be an issue, calculate them with both full and empty fuel before getting airborne, Regards Andrew -- Inweb Networks. Quality internet and telecoms services Sales: 08000 612222 Support: 08704322222. http://www.inweb.co.uk E1 call share - 65%. 0800, 0845 and 0870 numbers - best rates. Resellers welcome |
#6
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So, if on a flight distance of say 200 miles and with a passenger, would we
need to refuel several times just to maintain CG. Sorry about the questions, but remember I'm not a pilot but eager to learn all I can for the future. Mike W. "Andrew Crane" wrote in message ... "Mike Williams" wrote in message ... Could you actually run out of cyclic before running out of fuel and if you ever got into that situation would a safe or survivable landing be possible. e.g running landing or ditching. Breathe in :-) The nice thing about the Robinsons is you have the option to raise the cyclic up to your chin to get the extra stick travel required. Your limitations with the weight too far forward a - reduced aft stick movement available - reduced clearance between tailboom and rotors - reduced flap/mast clearance The worst thing is if you're going cross country with lots of people/weight and full tanks. As you burn the petrol off, you're unaware of the change in balance because you have a fair amount of forward stick to maintain cruise speed. It's only when you get to the destination you realise things are becoming uncomfortable. If weight and balance are going to be an issue, calculate them with both full and empty fuel before getting airborne, Regards Andrew -- Inweb Networks. Quality internet and telecoms services Sales: 08000 612222 Support: 08704322222. http://www.inweb.co.uk E1 call share - 65%. 0800, 0845 and 0870 numbers - best rates. Resellers welcome |
#7
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The weight and balance computer programme at the flight school i use
calculates it all for you . Basically you put in weights of pilot / passenger , fuel and any baggage (this is for a R22 ).The fuel amount can be to max take off weight -what weight is left between the max take off weight and the weight of the heli ,people and baggage.This programme then gives you weight and balance at take off and at landing with 5 gallons left on board ..you should always try and land with approx 5 gallons incase a divert is called at any time . So,your take off and landing weight and balance is callculated for you. Now i am going to aasume the following ,if your weight and balance is ok for take-off and landing then i would presume you do not check in flight because you are checking the 2 extreme parameters and these are ok. In the case of me and my heavy friend we were out of balance on take-off and out on balance on arriving with 5 gallons om board calculated.thats why we switch machine and went for a short flight. Cheers Ben "Mike Williams" wrote in message ... So, if on a flight distance of say 200 miles and with a passenger, would we need to refuel several times just to maintain CG. Sorry about the questions, but remember I'm not a pilot but eager to learn all I can for the future. Mike W. "Andrew Crane" wrote in message ... "Mike Williams" wrote in message ... Could you actually run out of cyclic before running out of fuel and if you ever got into that situation would a safe or survivable landing be possible. e.g running landing or ditching. Breathe in :-) The nice thing about the Robinsons is you have the option to raise the cyclic up to your chin to get the extra stick travel required. Your limitations with the weight too far forward a - reduced aft stick movement available - reduced clearance between tailboom and rotors - reduced flap/mast clearance The worst thing is if you're going cross country with lots of people/weight and full tanks. As you burn the petrol off, you're unaware of the change in balance because you have a fair amount of forward stick to maintain cruise speed. It's only when you get to the destination you realise things are becoming uncomfortable. If weight and balance are going to be an issue, calculate them with both full and empty fuel before getting airborne, Regards Andrew -- Inweb Networks. Quality internet and telecoms services Sales: 08000 612222 Support: 08704322222. http://www.inweb.co.uk E1 call share - 65%. 0800, 0845 and 0870 numbers - best rates. Resellers welcome |
#8
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You need to learn to do weight and balance for yourself- without a computer.
It's really very simple and painless using a calculator and/or pencil and paper. The flight manual will have aircraft w&b, and then sum whats added to that for weight, and moments to the aircraft moment, divide by total weight. In the way back old days, I'd expect a student (or any pilot) to do one longhand-manual calculations on paper. If you can't do this, you don't understand W&B and you're an accident waiting to happen- Sorta like relying on a box to navigate for you-you're lost and don't know it until the box dies... Many flight manuals have charts that you move thru to compute approximate w&b. In the end, if it's close you gotta compute it yourself. This is especially true if you haven't the experience to know the danger zones. Once you know them, mostly it's load to gross and go. And yes indeed, you can load a helo out of w&b... Weight's usually a lesser problem, unless your next landing is at a markedly higher altitude, because if you're too heavy, the bird won't aviate in power limits. Sometimes, not at all. The balance part is very dangerous- you have to be in flight to discover you're out of control authority if you haven't computed it. The balance might be off aft, forward or even sideways, limiting control authority- you can't stop the translation. It can affect yaw as well- that's affected by control arm length, tail rotor from CG- I've never experienced it. Once free of the ground's restraint, and in flight, you're committed, it's a question of survival. Another very good reason for gradual liftoffs- if you hit a control stop before the bird starts moving, you can put the weight back on the ground and figure out what happened before an accident investigation. Some helos can, normally loaded, move out of CG with fuel burn. It's useful to go thru and compute worst case scenarios and know where the potential danger is if you're not using a load chart scheme. Wally |
#9
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Hi Wally
My instructor did teach me to do it the manual way to understand exactly what it was about . We did it numerous times using the r22 robbo manual using the arms and calcs.So i did experience what you were advising , i was just surprised to see it early on in my relatively early flying career . It is something that i will pay alot of attention too . cheers Ben "Walter Hawn" wrote in message ... You need to learn to do weight and balance for yourself- without a computer. It's really very simple and painless using a calculator and/or pencil and paper. The flight manual will have aircraft w&b, and then sum whats added to that for weight, and moments to the aircraft moment, divide by total weight. In the way back old days, I'd expect a student (or any pilot) to do one longhand-manual calculations on paper. If you can't do this, you don't understand W&B and you're an accident waiting to happen- Sorta like relying on a box to navigate for you-you're lost and don't know it until the box dies... Many flight manuals have charts that you move thru to compute approximate w&b. In the end, if it's close you gotta compute it yourself. This is especially true if you haven't the experience to know the danger zones. Once you know them, mostly it's load to gross and go. And yes indeed, you can load a helo out of w&b... Weight's usually a lesser problem, unless your next landing is at a markedly higher altitude, because if you're too heavy, the bird won't aviate in power limits. Sometimes, not at all. The balance part is very dangerous- you have to be in flight to discover you're out of control authority if you haven't computed it. The balance might be off aft, forward or even sideways, limiting control authority- you can't stop the translation. It can affect yaw as well- that's affected by control arm length, tail rotor from CG- I've never experienced it. Once free of the ground's restraint, and in flight, you're committed, it's a question of survival. Another very good reason for gradual liftoffs- if you hit a control stop before the bird starts moving, you can put the weight back on the ground and figure out what happened before an accident investigation. Some helos can, normally loaded, move out of CG with fuel burn. It's useful to go thru and compute worst case scenarios and know where the potential danger is if you're not using a load chart scheme. Wally |
#10
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In article , Anne-Marie Maddison
wrote: The weight and balance computer programme at the flight school i use calculates it all for you . Basically you put in weights of pilot / passenger , fuel and any baggage (this is for a R22 ).The fuel amount can be to max take off weight -what weight is left between the max take off weight and the weight of the heli ,people and baggage.This programme then gives you weight and balance at take off and at landing with 5 gallons left on board .you should always try and land with approx 5 gallons incase a divert is called at any time . So,your take off and landing weight and balance is callculated for you. Now i am going to aasume the following ,if your weight and balance is ok for take-off and landing then i would presume you do not check in flight because you are checking the 2 extreme parameters and these are ok. In the case of me and my heavy friend we were out of balance on take-off and out on balance on arriving with 5 gallons om board calculated.thats why we switch machine and went for a short flight. Cheers Ben http://homepage.mac.com/swaltner/flying/ I've posted it before, but this page has a Excel spreadsheet that I developed on it. It does the W&B calcs for a R-22. It calculates the max fuel you can carry on board and stay under the max gross weight. It will plot the "full" and empty fuel points on fore/aft & right/left CG charts. I've found that the R-22 helicopters that I flew could cary about 430 pounds pilot/passenger/baggage before being outside of the forward CG range. Please verify all calculations done by the spreadsheet before flight. Steve |
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