Phoebus A as a first glider

What are your thoughts regarding the Phoebus A as a first glider for a low-time pilot who received their training in a 2-33? I have the opportunity to acquire a Phoebus for a very good price from the club that I'm training with, but it has not flown in over 15yrs. No one knows of any obvious problems with it, but no one can say it is OK either. It does not come with a trailer.

http://phoebus.vassel.com/site_page_2511/

On Thursday, April 12, 2018 at 9:48:50 PM UTC-7, wrote:
http://phoebus.vassel.com/site_page_2511/

Thanks for the link. That is a very insightful evaluation. I'm also interested in what others think, particularly those who have flown a Phoebus.

Hi a John, I did the same thing with a Phoebus C. They are fairly bulletproof and easy to work on, we have given ours away for free to young pilots to build time on. They go pretty well cross country but they are are a bit of a floater, not that comfortable, have wooden wings, have gelcoat issues and a removable canopy.
Ours had dual electric varios, flarm, radio and Oudie.
I can’t help feeling that as more than 6 years have now passed and you would be better off in a more modern 15m like a Astir, libelle, cirrus, hornet, Jantar ect. All of them are old but can still be competitive in club class. With the Phoebus I think you would always be looking at the more modern glider.

Justin

Originally Posted by John Foster

On Thursday, April 12, 2018 at 9:48:50 PM UTC-7, wrote:
http://phoebus.vassel.com/site_page_2511/

Thanks for the link. That is a very insightful evaluation. I'm also interested in what others think, particularly those who have flown a Phoebus.

Phoebus, fun plane in 10 easy steps!
1. Go to phoebus.vassel as directed and read everything written on the
Phoebus, and then watch all the videos Bruno made flying the ship, you'll
get an excellent idea of its capabilities.
2. Go he http://www.ltb-lindner.com/phoebus-ad-sb.html
Rudolph Linder was one of the original designers, his shop is now run by his
son. He will respond to emails, and you can speak with him if necessary.
Look at the AD&SB Summary, particularly as it pertains to
13 94 001 . 09 27-6 . 08 27-20. Many AI's won't even see this.
There have been virtually no AD's on this ship anyway.
3. Take the seat pan out and fill that area with lots of pillows because your
knees and legs will go here. Then remove the cubby shelf. With a utility
light, a strong flashlight, and an inspection mirror on an extendable arm at
the ready, carefully climb in there, taking care not to load up the control
rods that are under the pillows... and stuff your head right on into the area
that was the cubby shelf you took out, and where you will see all the
control rods articulating everything. It's really quite enjoyable to get
in there and play around seeing how it all works. You can get even
further in as you relax and get comfortable.. I hope you're not a 250
pounder by the way.
4. You need to take your time and inspect every rod-end
fitting in there. The ones they used back in 65 were of the exposed ball
bearing type, in other words, you can see the balls contained in the
bearing.
Sometimes there are some missing balls, you may even find some laying
down in the fuselage. Some may be frozen from corrosion or lubricant
solidification. Have the rod-end unscrewed from the rod and replaced
if there's any question. Quality replacements are not expensive.
Now go and find every single rod-end fitting on the ship.
5. Do # 4 yourself. Have a trusted/knowledgeable aircraft person go over
your work and hopefuly find nothing more if you feel lacking.
I hate to say it but aircraft inspections rarely, and I mean rarely inspect
to the bone marrow. Sad but true.
6. While you are in the "cave" check carefully that all the gussets and
stand-offs that hold things out away from the fuselage all have solid
fiberglass laminations; nothing is able to move, all is solid. Check
everywhere throughout the ship like this.
6. Polish the heck out of the wing root pins and hope they buff-out perfect
with no pitting, checking etc... otherwise the wings may be toast,
but there's a pair of C model wings out in Cal!
7. Check every moving part, every connection on that creature yourself
before an Annual is called for. Make certain you are there for that annual,
you will be amazed at what they NEVER look at, and then you will realize,
it is true, that You better know every nook and cranny of any aircraft
you ever own.
8. And then... and then.... move to the trailer and pick it apart.... rig the
whole plane with the knowlegable person that truly knows how to rig it,
not just somebody figuring it out on the fly..of course, before the annual.
Go through the logbook carefully, is it is complete? Was the plane rigged
for the annual? Got the picture?
9. Great bang for the buck them Phoebi'
10. Never ever get rushed into rushing with any of this. You buy it you own it.

Best of luck.

Originally Posted by John Foster

On Thursday, April 12, 2018 at 9:48:50 PM UTC-7, wrote:
http://phoebus.vassel.com/site_page_2511/

Thanks for the link. That is a very insightful evaluation. I'm also interested in what others think, particularly those who have flown a Phoebus.

I have extensive experience with Phoebus Gliders. I helped Bruno get his Phoebus A and I restored a Phoebus B. I’ve inspected 5-6 different Phoebus as pre-buy and condition inspections. I don’t have a lot of time to email or text so feel free to call! Love to talk to you!

Aaron Thomson
801-458-4885

At 03:05 13 April 2018, John Foster wrote:
What are your thoughts regarding the Phoebus A as a first glider for a
low-=
time pilot who received their training in a 2-33? I have the opportunity
t=
o acquire a Phoebus for a very good price from the club that I'm training
w=
ith, but it has not flown in over 15yrs. No one knows of any obvious
probl=
ems with it, but no one can say it is OK either. It does not come with a
t=
railer.

I wouldn't touch a glider that hadn't been flown for 15 years almost
regardless of type or price. There are too many things that could go wrong
when you try to return it to flying condition.

Especially as the first thing you will need to do is get a trailer. Even
if you can keep it hangared this will inhibit your attempts to go cross
country because of the difficulty of getting retrieved.

At the very least don't commit to it until it has been restored to flying
condition and flown. This will increase the price but will, I think, be
well worth it.

It might make a good project for a vintage glider enthusiast.

Chris

There are things that you want to know about the Phoebus. Bruno spent about an hour on the phone with me before I bought mine. I'm happy to do the same with you. They get a bad rap which I think is undeserved, I have quite enjoyed flying mine. I also learned to fly in a 2-33, but was able to spend time in 1-26 and a Lark, both good ships to prepare for the Phoebus. I have had no issues with the transition.

The concern about returning a glider from a 15 year hiatus is valid, as is the lack of trailer.

JD at spoot us if you want to email me!

JD

I had a "B" Phoebus for may years (same as the "A" but retractable gear). Handles reasonably well, climbs great, lousy penetration. Very wide span elevator which catches the spill from the dive brakes so it vibrates & rumbles with the brakes open (which can be disconcerting). Dive brake handle was very short so it was hard to modulate the brakes (I lengthened it). Removable canopy is a PITA (they all are).Elevator is big clumsy and a little hard to rig at times. Bolkow sometimes used motorcycle front wheels (with spokes removed) for the main gear (look to see if there are spoke holes in the wheel) so the wheels will not take any side load. Big all flying tail so she can be a little twitchy on tow but you will figure it out quickly. Oxygen bottle mount(on flimsy removable fiberglass tray behind pilot's head) is incredibly dangerous and simply should not be used.

If the glider is sound and inspected by a person knowledgeable about glass/balsa construction it should be OK as a first glider.

Good luck

ROY

On Thursday, April 12, 2018 at 11:05:26 PM UTC-4, John Foster wrote:
...it has not flown in over 15yrs. It does not come with a trailer.

....fiberglass and balsa wood sandwich technique

The airworthiness of this particular aircraft is the large gaping open question. Do you have an expert in this particular type who knows where to look for problems? Is it possible to find those problems with non-destructive inspection?

Have you thought about a nicely restored 1-26? Old school XC. Lots of relatively safe low speed landout practice. Easy to resell. Parts and expertise readily available. A strong community of owners. And great fun.