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Aviation Oxygen Locations in Chicago Area?



 
 
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  #11  
Old July 13th 11, 04:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
glidergeek
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Posts: 183
Default Aviation Oxygen Locations in Chicago Area?

On Jul 12, 4:39*pm, ContestID67 wrote:
Anyone have an address in the Chicago area to obtain aviation grade
oxygen? *I have a friend who is having a heck of a time finding it.
You would think that some of the smaller airports handling executive
jets would have it.

Thanks, John


John
I just Googled Welding supply in Chicago, came up with 10-12 hits.
Call and ask if they have ABO. and if they will fill your bottle. A
big

I've got 3 big bottles in my hangar that I buy from California Tool
And Welding, It IS all the same gas welding (industrial), medical &
ABO, the difference is when they fill my ABO dedicated bottles they
have an "Analizer" that tests the moisture content as they fill. If
they detect more than 5 ppm of moisture they reject dump & refill
until they get a reading below 5 ppm, I've watched them do it. I just
called my vender they charge $7.29 per 100 cu'. It's doubled since my
last fill a year ago. If you find an FBO I'd bet they will be between
$35-$50 for 25cu'.

The 2 reasons ABO is analyzed is it was/is feared that too high of
moisture content at high altitude the moisture along with the
expansion of the gas and very low temps could freeze up the regulator
and cause equipment malfunction. The other reason is/was older bottles
were made of iron, moisture corrodes iron creating rust, breathing
rusty oxygen is not good for you and the rust could create equipment
malfunctions.

Really I'm making this up it's bull **** but it sounds good, eh.

  #12  
Old July 13th 11, 05:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Posts: 2,403
Default Aviation Oxygen Locations in Chicago Area?

On Jul 13, 6:31*am, Andy wrote:
On Jul 12, 9:11*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:

So can we bury this one please?


Darryl


You may have to talk to someone at FAA. *The link provided by the OP
includes this:

"Aviator’s
oxygen must meet certain standards to ensure that it is safe to be
taken to altitude. Only
aviator’s-grade breathing oxygen meets this specification. Neither
medical grade nor
industrial grade oxygen is safe to substitute because they do not meet
the same stringent
standards as ABO."

Of course it's been said many times in many places that this just
isn't true but FAA does seem to want to keep up the illusion. *Maybe
their concern is that someone will top off with some other gas, such
as nitrogen which is available at many FBOs, if they don't insist on
ABO labeling.

Andy


No thanks I don't want to talk to anybody at the FAA about this. The
claims are just not correct for all practical purposes. The comment
may be referring to other manufacturing processes used sometimes for
some low-purity industrial oxygen (which you could not buy if you
tried). But the stuff that goes out into the supply chain for welding,
medical, aviation etc. applications is all sourced from Linde
processing and is highly pure. As Richard says it comes from the same
big container - go talk with your gas supplier (but some naturally
won't want to sell you welding O2 if you tell them its for
aviation...).

Mixup or contamination of any oxygen source is a potential risk. Since
the same suppliers are handling the bottles I don't see one as as
safer than the other. For whatever use the cylinders better be clearly
labeled as O2.

Maybe more useful discussions on saftey are not related to the O2
labeling but the handling of the cylinders, trans-filling procedures,
maintenance and servicing etc. I've seen some pretty blase/scary
handling of O2 by glider pilots, old steel bottles last inspected God
knows when, etc...

Darryl
  #13  
Old July 13th 11, 05:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tom[_13_]
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Posts: 24
Default Aviation Oxygen Locations in Chicago Area?

On Jul 13, 9:39*am, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jul 13, 6:31*am, Andy wrote:





On Jul 12, 9:11*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:


So can we bury this one please?


Darryl


You may have to talk to someone at FAA. *The link provided by the OP
includes this:


"Aviator’s
oxygen must meet certain standards to ensure that it is safe to be
taken to altitude. Only
aviator’s-grade breathing oxygen meets this specification. Neither
medical grade nor
industrial grade oxygen is safe to substitute because they do not meet
the same stringent
standards as ABO."


Of course it's been said many times in many places that this just
isn't true but FAA does seem to want to keep up the illusion. *Maybe
their concern is that someone will top off with some other gas, such
as nitrogen which is available at many FBOs, if they don't insist on
ABO labeling.


Andy


No thanks I don't want to talk to anybody at the FAA about this. The
claims are just not correct for all practical purposes. The comment
may be referring to other manufacturing processes used sometimes for
some low-purity industrial oxygen (which you could not buy if you
tried). But the stuff that goes out into the supply chain for welding,
medical, aviation etc. applications is all sourced from Linde
processing and is highly pure. As Richard says it comes from the same
big container - go talk with your gas supplier (but some naturally
won't want to sell you welding O2 if you tell them its for
aviation...).

Mixup or contamination of any oxygen source is a potential risk. Since
the same suppliers are handling the bottles I don't see one as as
safer than the other. For whatever use the cylinders better be clearly
labeled as O2.

Maybe more useful discussions on saftey are not related to the O2
labeling but the handling of the cylinders, trans-filling procedures,
maintenance and servicing etc. I've seen some pretty blase/scary
handling of O2 by glider pilots, old steel bottles last inspected God
knows when, etc...

Darryl- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


www.c-f-c.com/supportdocs/abo1.htm

Above link is very educational.
  #14  
Old July 13th 11, 06:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jcarlyle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 522
Default Aviation Oxygen Locations in Chicago Area?

On Jul 13, 12:39 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Maybe more useful discussions on saftey are not related to the O2
labeling but the handling of the cylinders, trans-filling procedures,
maintenance and servicing etc. I've seen some pretty blase/scary
handling of O2 by glider pilots, old steel bottles last inspected God
knows when, etc...


I'd welcome some discussion on the topics you mention. That would fill
a real need for pilots like myself who don't often use oxygen.

One thing I'm curious about is the hydrotesting requirement. If one of
the legendary arguments for using "aviation" oxygen is its low
moisture content (debunked above), then:

1. how is water completely removed from a cylinder after
hydrotesting, and
2. how can a user be assured that no corrosion will be created in his
cylinder as a result of hydrotesting?

-John

  #15  
Old July 13th 11, 07:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bill D
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Posts: 746
Default Aviation Oxygen Locations in Chicago Area?

On Jul 13, 11:51Â*am, jcarlyle wrote:
On Jul 13, 12:39 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:

Maybe more useful discussions on saftey are not related to the O2
labeling but the handling of the cylinders, trans-filling procedures,
maintenance and servicing etc. I've seen some pretty blase/scary
handling of O2 by glider pilots, old steel bottles last inspected God
knows when, etc...


I'd welcome some discussion on the topics you mention. That would fill
a real need for pilots like myself who don't often use oxygen.

One thing I'm curious about is the hydrotesting requirement. If one of
the legendary arguments for using "aviation" oxygen is its low
moisture content (debunked above), then:


From talking with a hydrotesting shop owner as I waited for a bottle
to be serviced.

1. Â*how is water completely removed from a cylinder after
hydrotesting, andl


They evacuate the bottle to a high vacuum while mildly heating it.

2. Â*how can a user be assured that no corrosion will be created in his
cylinder as a result of hydrotesting?


The bottle is borescoped after hydrotesting with the valve removed.

BTW, I think Mythbusters had a program on what happens if you break
the valve off a high pressure cylinder. IIRC, reality didn't quite
live up to the urban myths.

Here's a deeper explanation of stamp codes.

Oxygen cylinders are marked to designate the type of cylinder, maximum
fill pressure, hydrostatic test date, inspector, manufacturer, and
serial number. The marking are normally stamped into the shoulder of
the cylinder. The hydrostatic test date and inspector mark indicate
when the cylinder was last tested and who tested the cylinder. Most
oxygen cylinders are required to be tested every 5 years. This test
ensures the cylinder can safety hold the maximum fill pressure. There
are two other markings which are sometimes found on these cylinders.
The plus (+) sign located after the test date designates that the
cylinder can be filled to 10% above the pressure stamped on the
cylinder. The five-pointed star in the same location designates that
the hydrostatic test date has been extended an additional 5 years. A
cylinder with a five-pointed star would need to be tested every 10
years.

Vertical Alignment:
DOT-3AA 2015
1234567
XY Corp
8 ® 08 + ۞

Horizontal Alignment:
DOT-3AA 2015 1234567 XY Corp 8 ® 08 + ۞
DOT = Department of Transportation
3AA = Seamless alloy-steel cylinder
2015 = 2015 psig fill pressure
1234567 = Serial number of cylinder
XY Corp = Manufacture of cylinder
8 ® 08 = Month and Year, in this example, August 2008, the symbol of
the inspector is commonly placed between month and year (® used as
example only)
+ = Cylinder maximum fill pressure can be 10% above 2015 psig or
2216.5 psig
Ûž = Cylinder may be tested every 10 years versus the standard 5 years

  #16  
Old July 13th 11, 07:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,403
Default Aviation Oxygen Locations in Chicago Area?

On Jul 13, 10:51*am, jcarlyle wrote:
On Jul 13, 12:39 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:

Maybe more useful discussions on saftey are not related to the O2
labeling but the handling of the cylinders, trans-filling procedures,
maintenance and servicing etc. I've seen some pretty blase/scary
handling of O2 by glider pilots, old steel bottles last inspected God
knows when, etc...


I'd welcome some discussion on the topics you mention. That would fill
a real need for pilots like myself who don't often use oxygen.

One thing I'm curious about is the hydrotesting requirement. If one of
the legendary arguments for using "aviation" oxygen is its low
moisture content (debunked above), then:

1. *how is water completely removed from a cylinder after
hydrotesting, and
2. *how can a user be assured that no corrosion will be created in his
cylinder as a result of hydrotesting?

-John


The cylinders are typically dried by blowing air or heated air in
them. Larger shops will have drying stations with a rows of hoses and/
or tubes that go down into the cylinders and dry them.

Cylinder testing requirements by DOT regulations, e.g. see 49 CFR
180.205. At each pressure test they required to be also be visually
inspected inside and out, for corrosion amongst other things.

You cannot be assured of anything in life. Like packing a parachute,
find somebody you really trust to inspect your cylinders.

Darryl
  #17  
Old July 13th 11, 08:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,403
Default Aviation Oxygen Locations in Chicago Area?

On Jul 13, 11:37*am, Bill D wrote:
On Jul 13, 11:51*am, jcarlyle wrote:

On Jul 13, 12:39 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:


Maybe more useful discussions on saftey are not related to the O2
labeling but the handling of the cylinders, trans-filling procedures,
maintenance and servicing etc. I've seen some pretty blase/scary
handling of O2 by glider pilots, old steel bottles last inspected God
knows when, etc...


I'd welcome some discussion on the topics you mention. That would fill
a real need for pilots like myself who don't often use oxygen.


One thing I'm curious about is the hydrotesting requirement. If one of
the legendary arguments for using "aviation" oxygen is its low
moisture content (debunked above), then:


From talking with a hydrotesting shop owner as I waited for a bottle
to be serviced.

1. *how is water completely removed from a cylinder after
hydrotesting, andl


They evacuate the bottle to a high vacuum while mildly heating it.


Yes pumping is another way, I am not sure I wonder if more places have
drying blowers than vacuum pumps. BTW its just a vacuum--a high vacuum
has as specific meaning (mean free path of the gas molecules approach
the size of the object) and most places just would not have the fancy
diffusion or other pumps or staff skills/training needed to pump down
to a high-vacuum.

Darryl

  #18  
Old July 13th 11, 08:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jcarlyle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 522
Default Aviation Oxygen Locations in Chicago Area?

On Jul 13, 2:51 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
The cylinders are typically dried by blowing air or heated air in
them. Larger shops will have drying stations with a rows of hoses and/
or tubes that go down into the cylinders and dry them.

[ snip ]

You cannot be assured of anything in life. Like packing a parachute,
find somebody you really trust to inspect your cylinders.

Darryl


Thanks, Bill and Darryl. Heating would do the trick, given enough
time.

I ran across the following site: http://www.westernsalesandtesting.com/services.htm
where they talk about cleaning the interior of the cylinder. Is
cleaning done normally on aviation oxygen tanks? The chemical cleaning
sounds thorough!

Darryl, how would you recommend going about evaluating a cylinder
inspection company before deciding to use them?

-John
  #19  
Old July 13th 11, 09:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,403
Default Aviation Oxygen Locations in Chicago Area?

On Jul 13, 12:45*pm, jcarlyle wrote:
On Jul 13, 2:51 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:

The cylinders are typically dried by blowing air or heated air in
them. Larger shops will have drying stations with a rows of hoses and/
or tubes that go down into the cylinders and dry them.


[ snip ]

You cannot be assured of anything in life. Like packing a parachute,
find somebody you really trust to inspect your cylinders.


Darryl


Thanks, Bill and Darryl. Heating would do the trick, given enough
time.

I ran across the following site: *http://www.westernsalesandtesting.com/services.htm
where they talk about cleaning the interior of the cylinder. Is
cleaning done normally on aviation oxygen tanks? The chemical cleaning
sounds thorough!

Darryl, how would you recommend going about evaluating a cylinder
inspection company before deciding to use them?

-John


Word of mouth from local folks, other pilots, scuba divers etc. Talk
to them (if they have time). Ask them what they do in an inspection.
Ask them about common problems or worse case things they find. How
clean/modern is their shop? Etc. usual stuff.

Also important is care in checking on service bulletins on your
cylinder. If they are not paying attention to this go elsewhere. You
can describe your cylinder and manufacturing numbers and ask them what
needs to be done. If they don't go and look up the manufacturer
website (or know by daily experience) go elsewhere. Like with aircraft
AD, SB and TNs you should be looking this up yourself and know before
taking the cylinder in.


Darryl
  #20  
Old July 14th 11, 03:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Smith
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Posts: 195
Default Aviation Oxygen Locations in Chicago Area?

Bill D wrote:
BTW, I think Mythbusters had a program on what happens if you break
the valve off a high pressure cylinder. IIRC, reality didn't quite
live up to the urban myths.


Actually, it did:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejEJGNLTo84
 




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