Turn and Bank indicator and competition

I have a turn and bank indicator installed in my glider. I would like
to fly in a competition this year and I read somewhere that this kind
of instrument is not allowed to be used during a competition flight.

The question is; do I have to remove the instrument all together or
can the competition director seal the switch in off position or cover
the instrument and seal it? I don't like to remove the instrument
since it can be a safety device while wave flying in anything less
then perfect weather.

Please note I am not asking if I should ever use this device that is
not the question. The question is simply interpretation of competition
rules and what does happen is a situation like this?

Thank you in advance...

Disconnect without removing?

At 03:12 19 February 2008, Ak wrote:
I have a turn and bank indicator installed in my glider.
I would like
to fly in a competition this year and I read somewhere
that this kind
of instrument is not allowed to be used during a competition
flight.

The question is; do I have to remove the instrument
all together or
can the competition director seal the switch in off
position or cover
the instrument and seal it? I don't like to remove
the instrument
since it can be a safety device while wave flying in
anything less
then perfect weather.

Please note I am not asking if I should ever use this
device that is
not the question. The question is simply interpretation
of competition
rules and what does happen is a situation like this?

Thank you in advance...

AK wrote:

The question is; do I have to remove the instrument all together or
can the competition director seal the switch in off position or cover
the instrument and seal it?

I've seen installations with long screws where a cover could be mounted
and sealed. (Long screws for the cover and wing nuts with a hole for the
sealng wire.)

I have a turn and bank indicator installed in my glider. I would like
to fly in a competition this year and I read somewhere that this kind
of instrument is not allowed to be used during a competition flight.

The question is; do I have to remove the instrument all together or
can the competition director seal the switch in off position or cover
the instrument and seal it? I don't like to remove the instrument
since it can be a safety device while wave flying in anything less
then perfect weather.

Please note I am not asking if I should ever use this device that is
not the question. The question is simply interpretation of competition
rules and what does happen is a situation like this?


In the US, the rule is pretty clear

6.6.1 Each sailplane is prohibited from carrying any instrument
which:
* Permits flight without reference to the ground.

As I read it, "carry" means "carry", so you will need a waiver of the
rule if you don't want to physically pull it out. Contact the CD of
the contest you want to fly in. I suspect even "seal" will not be
enough -- you should not be able to turn it on after an attempt at
cloud flying by compass and GPS fails.

John Cochrane

I don't like to remove the instrument
since it can be a safety device while wave flying in anything less
then perfect weather.


In the US, the rule is pretty clear

*6.6.1 Each sailplane is prohibited from carrying any instrument
which:
* * * * * * * ** Permits flight without reference to the ground.

I'm not on the Rules Committee but it's arguable whether a T&B that's
disconnected from power (or the on-off switch) permits flight without
reference to the ground. I suspect the question would be how certain
could the CD be that the instrument couldn't be made operable after
it's inspected but before flight, whether normally or through
bypassing the connector/switch. There's probably a satisfactory way of
dealing with this involving sealing. What would trouble me is the
statement that "I don't like to remove the instrument since it can be
a safety device..." That would imply the pilot wants it available in
an emergency. Now we're back to past arguments about flap timers
(when, for a brief period, 15M gliders were allowed to fly in Standard
Class in the US with the flaps disabled or, if flaps only, a timer
permitting 5 min. of use for landing) and motorgliders (engines
operable but with a noise sensor in the flight recorder). Seems to me
that if the pilot could use the instrument in an emergency but with
loss of points, this would violate the letter and the spirit of the
Rules.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
USA

In the US, the rule is pretty clear

*6.6.1 Each sailplane is prohibited from carrying any instrument
which:
* * * * * * * ** Permits flight without reference to the ground.

I'm not on the Rules Committee but it's arguable whether a T&B that's
disconnected from power (or the on-off switch) permits flight without
reference to the ground.

This is a brilliant reading of the rules. Yes, you could certainly
argue that if disabled to the CD's satisfaction, the instrument no
longer permits flight without reference to the ground, and thus may
still be carried. It's just ballast. If you convince the CD, you don't
need a waiver.

It still would be good to talk to the CD about this ahead of time,
rather than 9 am on the first day of the contest. And I am sure there
is precedent for how to handle this issue, since lots of gliders have
installed T&Bs.

BTW, though I am on the rules commitee, only Hank Nixon or Ken
Sorenson speak for the committee -- my posts are only personal
opinions.

John Cochrane

BB wrote:

I'm not on the Rules Committee but it's arguable whether a T&B that's
disconnected from power (or the on-off switch) permits flight without
reference to the ground.

... If you convince the CD,

No CD in his right mind would argue against it. At least the CDs I've
happened to deal with tended to be quite reasonable persons. Most
usually their goal was to organize a pleasing event rather than to annoy
pilots. But this is Europe, maybe US CDs are different?

There is a story about Dick Schreder, on page 100 of the book "10,000 feet &
Climbing," being sucked up into a cloud which reads:

"He fumbled around in his pocket and retrieved the instrument (T&B) and
battery and bent forward to install them in the instrument panel. In all
the confusion Dick accidentally hooked it up backwards. Between jostles and
jolts he fumbled with the wires, finally reversing the connections, which
yielded - at last - a proper readout."

Maybe this is why the term "carried" is used in the contest rules.

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder


"BB" wrote in message
...
This is a brilliant reading of the rules. Yes, you could certainly
argue that if disabled to the CD's satisfaction, the instrument no
longer permits flight without reference to the ground, and thus may
still be carried. It's just ballast. If you convince the CD, you don't
need a waiver.

It still would be good to talk to the CD about this ahead of time,
rather than 9 am on the first day of the contest. And I am sure there
is precedent for how to handle this issue, since lots of gliders have
installed T&Bs.

BTW, though I am on the rules commitee, only Hank Nixon or Ken
Sorenson speak for the committee -- my posts are only personal
opinions.

John Cochrane

On Feb 20, 11:07*am, John Smith wrote:
BB wrote:
I'm not on the Rules Committee but it's arguable whether a T&B that's
disconnected from power (or the on-off switch) permits flight without
reference to the ground.
... If you convince the CD,

No CD in his right mind would argue against it. At least the CDs I've
happened to deal with tended to be quite reasonable persons. Most
usually their goal was to organize a pleasing event rather than to annoy
pilots. But this is Europe, maybe US CDs are different?

Same here -- but they do want to follow the rules. And following the
rules is a good way to please people, like all the other pilots who
wonder why Joe has an operational turn and bank!

John Cochrane

How hard is it to temporarily remove a Turn and Bank ?

4 Screws and 2 wires. Adjust the weight and balance if you want.
If the wires are not easily disconnected, then add a quick connect in
the cable.

Todd Smith
3S