Is FLARM helpful?

On Monday, November 30, 2015 at 9:39:20 PM UTC-5, Dave Springford wrote:
Andy,

Thank you for your insights on this, I completely agree with all your points. I am hearing rumours that the rules committee is already planning to implement stealth mode for Nationals in 2016. How can this be when more pilots (point 5) want full flarm allowed than stealth mode?

I think Andy is overstating the data from the opinion poll. Everyone should look at the results again and read the comments. Anyone who is reading this discussion should also consider audience and contributors to RAS. This is a rather tech leaning group. Nothing wrong with that but it does not perfectly represent the soaring community.

The questions on FLARM are copied below. Make what you can out of them. Andy is referring to the last question in point 5 of his argument, I believe.

a) Flarm "radar" Hinders Enjoyment (in contests)- 24%
b) Flarm "radar" Enhances Enjoyment - 40%
c) Indifferent/no opinion/I haven't flown with FLARM - 34%

I don't know how you ignore the 34% who answered c) and then draw a conclusion that people are in favor of unlimited FLARM use at almost 2 to 1.

Reading the comments, I grouped the comments broadly into two groups, a) Love FLARM in contests let's use it to the fullest and b) Those who have reservations that full FLARM is the best for the sport. The latter means use stealth (competition) mode or no FLARM at all. I did not tally neutral comments like "let's see what the IGC does and match it", though that is certainly a valid opinion, too.

From the comments section: FLARM- go for it! - 23, FLARM - Stealth or no FLARM at all - 19

I hope I don't come off as argumentative, but the manufacturer of this technology has determined there was a technological need for a competition mode to their product and designed it. If there needs to be modifications to the collision warning algorithm or modifications to the parameters of the competition mode to account for Western conditions let's explore those options..


The rest of the FLARM questions from the opinion poll below.

XC


FLARM questions
With respect to FLARM at NATIONAL championships:
1) FLARM should be required equipment - 42%
2) It should be an organizer option as to whether FLARM is mandatory (like ELTs) - 23%
3) FLARM use should be left up to the individual pilot - 25%
4) FLARM should be prohibited - 2%
5) No preference - 4%
6) Other Opinion (use 2.8 comment box) - 2%

With respect to FLARM at REGIONAL contests:
1) FLARM should be required equipment - 21%
2) It should be an organizer option as to whether FLARM is mandatory (like ELTs) - 37%
3) FLARM should be left up to the individual pilot - 34%
4) FLARM should be prohibited - 2%
5) No preference - 3%
6) Other Opinion (use 2.8 comment box) - 3%



Stealth mode questions:

Background: when a FLARM is in "stealth" mode, the information it sees about other gliders, and information that other gliders can see about the stealth mode FLARM, is restricted to a short range and imminent collision threats. Call signs and climb rates are not shown. Imposing stealth mode is advocated to reduce gaggling and leeching and other tactical use of position data. Imposing stealth mode was tried at the Elmira 15 meter nationals. The nature of stealth mode is currently under review by the IGC, British Gliding Association and FLARM, aiming to improve collision alerts and minimize tactical information.

With respect to STEALTH mode in NATIONAL championships:
1) Stealth mode should be required for any FLARM - 30%
2) Stealth mode should be required/forbidden at the organizers' option -19%
3) Stealth mode should be used at the pilots' option - 24%
4) Stealth mode should be prohibited - 13%
5) No preference -11%
6) Other Opinion (use 2.8 comment box) - 3%

With respect to STEALTH mode in REGIONAL contests:
1) Stealth mode should be required for any FLARM - 20%
2) Stealth mode should be required/forbiden at the organizers' option - 22%
3) Stealth mode should be used at the pilots' option - 29%
4) Stealth mode should be prohibited - 17%
5) No preference - 11%
6) Other Opinion (use 2.8 comment box) - 2%

In your overall experience, is the use by yourself or others of FLARM to keep track of other gliders at range beyond imminent collision threats ("FLARM radar"), a feature that hinders your enjoyment of the contest, or enhances it? This is an overall question, considering safety, tactical use, the pleasure or pain of knowing where other gliders are, and anything else you feel relevant.
a) Flarm "radar" Hinders Enjoyment - 24%
b) Flarm "radar" Enhances Enjoyment - 40%
c) Indifferent/no opinion/I haven't flown with FLARM - 34%

Has there been a single documented case of a pilot in us competition putting a tinfoil hat over flarm? Yes this has happened at worlds, where classes, assigned tasks and leeching are big. Let's not pass rules over imaginary problems.

Ps if you're a little worried about legal system mplications of stealth, those of the tinfoil hat are much larger

John cochrane bb

The questions on FLARM are copied below. Make what you can out of them....

And, perhaps most telling of all 2.7,

Do you think gaggling and leeching are serious problems, and the RC should consider other rules changes (not Flarm-related) to reduce their prevalence? Develop Rules 11%. No 85%.

Remember, this stealth mode business is all a complex undertaking to reduce leeching; the ability of one pilot to gain by following others. There are lots of ways to leech, and lots of rules to stop it, especially in the starts.

I actually thought the numbers would be much greater on this. But the verdict is loud and clear. Gaggling and leeching in US contests are not perceived to be a serious problem by 85% of the pilots.

Where is the fire?

John Cochrane BB

On Tuesday, December 1, 2015 at 10:43:42 AM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:
The questions on FLARM are copied below. Make what you can out of them.....

And, perhaps most telling of all 2.7,

Do you think gaggling and leeching are serious problems, and the RC should consider other rules changes (not Flarm-related) to reduce their prevalence? Develop Rules 11%. No 85%.

Remember, this stealth mode business is all a complex undertaking to reduce leeching; the ability of one pilot to gain by following others. There are lots of ways to leech, and lots of rules to stop it, especially in the starts.

I actually thought the numbers would be much greater on this. But the verdict is loud and clear. Gaggling and leeching in US contests are not perceived to be a serious problem by 85% of the pilots.

Where is the fire?

John Cochrane BB

When I answered that question I was answering - Should the the RC consider other rules besides FLARM to prevent leeching? I answered - no.

Saw FLARM leeching at PAGC. Poor XG couldn't get away to do his own brilliant thing. He expressed his frustrations in passing or very politely at one of the meetings.

It is not just plain leeching either. Two thermals are ahead on the first leg and marked by other competitors. The guy trailing gets to pick which has a better value and save the time of centering it. Using FLARM the guys coming from behind uses the talents of the other two and potentially does better that either.

Those are two issues I have,
XC

On Tuesday, December 1, 2015 at 10:43:42 AM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:
The questions on FLARM are copied below. Make what you can out of them.....

And, perhaps most telling of all 2.7,

Do you think gaggling and leeching are serious problems, and the RC should consider other rules changes (not Flarm-related) to reduce their prevalence? Develop Rules 11%. No 85%.

Remember, this stealth mode business is all a complex undertaking to reduce leeching; the ability of one pilot to gain by following others. There are lots of ways to leech, and lots of rules to stop it, especially in the starts.

I actually thought the numbers would be much greater on this. But the verdict is loud and clear. Gaggling and leeching in US contests are not perceived to be a serious problem by 85% of the pilots.

Where is the fire?

John Cochrane BB

When I answered that question I was answering - Should the the RC consider other rules besides FLARM to prevent leeching? I answered - no.

Saw FLARM leeching at PAGC. Poor XG couldn't get away to do his own brilliant thing. He expressed his frustrations in passing and very politely at one of the meetings.

It is not just plain leeching either. Two thermals are ahead on the first leg and marked by other competitors. The guy trailing gets to pick which has a better value and save the time of centering it. Using FLARM, the guy coming from behind uses the talents of the other two and potentially does better than either.

Those are two issues I have,
XC

On Tuesday, December 1, 2015 at 7:20:42 AM UTC-8, XC wrote:
On Monday, November 30, 2015 at 9:39:20 PM UTC-5, Dave Springford wrote:
Andy,

Thank you for your insights on this, I completely agree with all your points. I am hearing rumours that the rules committee is already planning to implement stealth mode for Nationals in 2016. How can this be when more pilots (point 5) want full flarm allowed than stealth mode?

I think Andy is overstating the data from the opinion poll. Everyone should look at the results again and read the comments. Anyone who is reading this discussion should also consider audience and contributors to RAS. This is a rather tech leaning group. Nothing wrong with that but it does not perfectly represent the soaring community.

The questions on FLARM are copied below. Make what you can out of them. Andy is referring to the last question in point 5 of his argument, I believe..

a) Flarm "radar" Hinders Enjoyment (in contests)- 24%
b) Flarm "radar" Enhances Enjoyment - 40%
c) Indifferent/no opinion/I haven't flown with FLARM - 34%

I don't know how you ignore the 34% who answered c) and then draw a conclusion that people are in favor of unlimited FLARM use at almost 2 to 1.

Reading the comments, I grouped the comments broadly into two groups, a) Love FLARM in contests let's use it to the fullest and b) Those who have reservations that full FLARM is the best for the sport. The latter means use stealth (competition) mode or no FLARM at all. I did not tally neutral comments like "let's see what the IGC does and match it", though that is certainly a valid opinion, too.

From the comments section: FLARM- go for it! - 23, FLARM - Stealth or no FLARM at all - 19

I hope I don't come off as argumentative, but the manufacturer of this technology has determined there was a technological need for a competition mode to their product and designed it. If there needs to be modifications to the collision warning algorithm or modifications to the parameters of the competition mode to account for Western conditions let's explore those options.


The rest of the FLARM questions from the opinion poll below.

XC


FLARM questions
With respect to FLARM at NATIONAL championships:
1) FLARM should be required equipment - 42%
2) It should be an organizer option as to whether FLARM is mandatory (like ELTs) - 23%
3) FLARM use should be left up to the individual pilot - 25%
4) FLARM should be prohibited - 2%
5) No preference - 4%
6) Other Opinion (use 2.8 comment box) - 2%

With respect to FLARM at REGIONAL contests:
1) FLARM should be required equipment - 21%
2) It should be an organizer option as to whether FLARM is mandatory (like ELTs) - 37%
3) FLARM should be left up to the individual pilot - 34%
4) FLARM should be prohibited - 2%
5) No preference - 3%
6) Other Opinion (use 2.8 comment box) - 3%



Stealth mode questions:

Background: when a FLARM is in "stealth" mode, the information it sees about other gliders, and information that other gliders can see about the stealth mode FLARM, is restricted to a short range and imminent collision threats. Call signs and climb rates are not shown. Imposing stealth mode is advocated to reduce gaggling and leeching and other tactical use of position data. Imposing stealth mode was tried at the Elmira 15 meter nationals. The nature of stealth mode is currently under review by the IGC, British Gliding Association and FLARM, aiming to improve collision alerts and minimize tactical information.

With respect to STEALTH mode in NATIONAL championships:
1) Stealth mode should be required for any FLARM - 30%
2) Stealth mode should be required/forbidden at the organizers' option -19%
3) Stealth mode should be used at the pilots' option - 24%
4) Stealth mode should be prohibited - 13%
5) No preference -11%
6) Other Opinion (use 2.8 comment box) - 3%

With respect to STEALTH mode in REGIONAL contests:
1) Stealth mode should be required for any FLARM - 20%
2) Stealth mode should be required/forbiden at the organizers' option - 22%
3) Stealth mode should be used at the pilots' option - 29%
4) Stealth mode should be prohibited - 17%
5) No preference - 11%
6) Other Opinion (use 2.8 comment box) - 2%

In your overall experience, is the use by yourself or others of FLARM to keep track of other gliders at range beyond imminent collision threats ("FLARM radar"), a feature that hinders your enjoyment of the contest, or enhances it? This is an overall question, considering safety, tactical use, the pleasure or pain of knowing where other gliders are, and anything else you feel relevant.
a) Flarm "radar" Hinders Enjoyment - 24%
b) Flarm "radar" Enhances Enjoyment - 40%
c) Indifferent/no opinion/I haven't flown with FLARM - 34%

It is quite correct to say that "of pilots that expressed an opinion, nearly twice as many felt that Flarm enhanced enjoyment as hindered it". I am a bit alarmed that the possibility that a pilot might flagrantly violate the rules (by putting a tin foil hat on the antenna) is advanced as an argument that the rules should be changed so they don't have to cheat.

On Tuesday, December 1, 2015 at 10:31:47 AM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:
Has there been a single documented case of a pilot in us competition putting a tinfoil hat over flarm? Yes this has happened at worlds, where classes, assigned tasks and leeching are big. Let's not pass rules over imaginary problems.

Ps if you're a little worried about legal system mplications of stealth, those of the tinfoil hat are much larger

John cochrane bb

The answer is yes.
I won't out the individual.
It is known that this tactic is becoming more common in europe, including one world champion.
There are also other quite easy ways to kill the out signal while getting the in on antenna 2.
UH

I'd like to know how not identifying a glider by call sign or climb rate
(if I understand stealth mode) degrades safety. C'mon, people, you
sound like a bunch of evangelists.

On 12/1/2015 2:40 AM, krasw wrote:
On Tuesday, 1 December 2015 05:49:27 UTC+2, John Cochrane wrote:
The Uvalde midair resulted in a suit against organizers, and the Tonopah takeoff accident did as well.

John Cochrane BB (Signed up for Nephi, stealth off.)
What? Seriously?

--
Dan, 5J

Has there been a single documented case of a pilot in us competition putting a tinfoil hat over flarm?
John cochrane bb

The answer is yes.
I won't out the individual.
It is known that this tactic is becoming more common in europe, including one world champion.
There are also other quite easy ways to kill the out signal while getting the in on antenna 2.
UH

OK. I'll call and raise. Is one pilot doing one questionably useful dumb thing once sufficient to impose cumbersome rules with potential safety consequences, over the expressed preferences of the pilots? Again, worlds is a different issue, as the nature of flying there is totally different.

Is the presence of other possible ways to do stupid things, that nobody has done yet, sufficient? This is how the rule book is starting to look like federal regulations

BB

On Tuesday, December 1, 2015 at 8:24:19 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, December 1, 2015 at 10:31:47 AM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:
Has there been a single documented case of a pilot in us competition putting a tinfoil hat over flarm? Yes this has happened at worlds, where classes, assigned tasks and leeching are big. Let's not pass rules over imaginary problems.

Ps if you're a little worried about legal system mplications of stealth, those of the tinfoil hat are much larger

John cochrane bb

The answer is yes.
I won't out the individual.
It is known that this tactic is becoming more common in europe, including one world champion.
There are also other quite easy ways to kill the out signal while getting the in on antenna 2.
UH

UH,
This pilot has been banded from future sanctioned SSA events under 12.2.5.1 (unsafe operation) or 12.2.5.3(unsportsmanlike conduct) rules. Correct?
Craig