Control Tower Controversy brewing in the FAA

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
link.net...

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

Yes, you would have some competition if each region was periodically bid
out, but certainly not perfect competition in the economics sense of the
word.


But that's the competition that forces private companies to achieve the
efficiencies touted by those that advocate privatization.

Automation increases productivity thereby reducing labor.

John Mazor wrote:

That's because, as Reagan proved in 1981, federal unions such as PATCO
and NATCA are toothless tigers because they cannot strike. Their
sole power resides in their ability to convince management by the
logical force of argument - and we all know how well that works if
management doesn't want to cooperate - or lobbying for political
support on Capitol Hill.

NATCA just goes right over the head of management and directly to Congress.


NATCA's expensive PR campaign to influence
Congress in the FAA Reauthorization Bill, necessitated by the loss of
the political support that they enjoyed during the Clinton years,
proves that point.

NATCA is always going to Congress about something or other.

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...
John Mazor wrote:

If the phone company screws up, your call doesn't go through. If
Tony's ATC Service and Aluminum Siding Company gets the low bid
and
then screws up, you die. If Big Jimbo's Fire Department and Auto
Repair screws up, you die. If Slick Sammy's Police and Pet
Grooming
Station screws up, you die. There's a qualitative difference
here,
which is why historically we have tended not to privatize these
functions, at least in the sense of auctioning it off to the
lowest
bidder who wants to make a profit at it.

Within a few days, you'll be able to switch phone providers at
will
and keep your old phone number. You can't do that with ATC,
switching
contractors willy-nilly when one kills people or another comes
along
with a better price.

Sorry, if the call is 911, somebody very well could die.

True, but since I don't have the stats on 911 calls, I'll make a WAG
here and restate it to read that if the phone company screws up,
99.999% of the time all that happens is that your call doesn't go
through.

But you swung a two-edged sword by mentioning 911 calls. Once your
call goes through, who do you think is at the other end of the line?
It's not Ernestine the Operator. It's a government employee.

"Newps" wrote in message
news:HRUub.188068$mZ5.1366651@attbi_s54...


John Mazor wrote:

That's because, as Reagan proved in 1981, federal unions such as
PATCO
and NATCA are toothless tigers because they cannot strike. Their
sole power resides in their ability to convince management by the
logical force of argument - and we all know how well that works if
management doesn't want to cooperate - or lobbying for political
support on Capitol Hill.

NATCA just goes right over the head of management and directly to
Congress.

Right. They can't strike, so they play the only power card they have.

NATCA's expensive PR campaign to influence
Congress in the FAA Reauthorization Bill, necessitated by the loss
of
the political support that they enjoyed during the Clinton years,
proves that point.

NATCA is always going to Congress about something or other.

Right. They can't strike, so they play the only power card they have.

FAA is trying to get its ATC act together, see the ATO announcements
today. Time will tell if they can straighten it out enough to
forestall privatization.

-- John Mazor
"The search for wisdom is asymptotic."

"Except for Internet newsgroups, where it is divergent..."
-- R J Carpenter

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
news

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Tom S." wrote in message
news

Wrong analogy.


No, that's the precise analogy.

Privatization for the Bells was the end of human Toll Call connection, in
favor of automation. Now a collect call for 20 minutes costs less than
the
first minute of a direct dial toll call once did.

The Bell's were always private companies, but with legal monopolies. It was
the introduction of COMPETITION, in the form of MCI (who essentially started
it off) and other than drove the Bells to compete. They could not do it with
labor intensive processes.

"Tom S." wrote in message
...

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
news

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Tom S." wrote in message
news
Wrong analogy.


No, that's the precise analogy.

Privatization for the Bells was the end of human Toll Call connection,
in
favor of automation. Now a collect call for 20 minutes costs less than
the
first minute of a direct dial toll call once did.

The Bell's were always private companies, but with legal monopolies. It
was
the introduction of COMPETITION, in the form of MCI (who essentially
started
it off) and other than drove the Bells to compete. They could not do it
with
labor intensive processes.

Payroll is where the money is.

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

"Tom S." wrote in message
...

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
news

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Tom S." wrote in message
news
Wrong analogy.


No, that's the precise analogy.

Privatization for the Bells was the end of human Toll Call connection,
in
favor of automation. Now a collect call for 20 minutes costs less
than
the
first minute of a direct dial toll call once did.

The Bell's were always private companies, but with legal monopolies. It
was
the introduction of COMPETITION, in the form of MCI (who essentially
started
it off) and other than drove the Bells to compete. They could not do it
with
labor intensive processes.

Payroll is where the money is.

And headcount is what gives unions and executives POWER.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

Yes, you would have some competition if each region was periodically bid
out, but certainly not perfect competition in the economics sense of the
word.



But that's the competition that forces private companies to achieve the
efficiencies touted by those that advocate privatization.



I agree that you need "perfect" competition to yield perfectly low
prices, but perfect competition rarely exists in the real world as it
requires consumers to have perfect knowledge of all alternate products
and their prices. A regional system is far from perfect, but it would
provide much more competition than exists now, but certainly far from
perfect competition.

It is also fairly well established now that a free market isn't the best
way to handle every good and service. I think there are services that
are better handled via a regulated monopoly, a government or other form
of distribution.


Matt

John Mazor wrote:
"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

John Mazor wrote:


If the phone company screws up, your call doesn't go through. If
Tony's ATC Service and Aluminum Siding Company gets the low bid

and

then screws up, you die. If Big Jimbo's Fire Department and Auto
Repair screws up, you die. If Slick Sammy's Police and Pet

Grooming

Station screws up, you die. There's a qualitative difference

here,

which is why historically we have tended not to privatize these
functions, at least in the sense of auctioning it off to the

lowest

bidder who wants to make a profit at it.

Within a few days, you'll be able to switch phone providers at

will

and keep your old phone number. You can't do that with ATC,

switching

contractors willy-nilly when one kills people or another comes

along

with a better price.

Sorry, if the call is 911, somebody very well could die.


True, but since I don't have the stats on 911 calls, I'll make a WAG
here and restate it to read that if the phone company screws up,
99.999% of the time all that happens is that your call doesn't go
through.

I have no idea as I have no statistics. However, probably similar stats
apply to ATC. You seem to think that every ATC mistake results in
guaranteed death of a pilot or airplane passenger. This is hardly the
case at all.


But you swung a two-edged sword by mentioning 911 calls. Once your
call goes through, who do you think is at the other end of the line?
It's not Ernestine the Operator. It's a government employee.

Not where I live. Last I knew the dispatching of emergency services was
provided by a private contractor and all of the responders in my area
(rural) are unpaid volunteers.


Matt

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

I agree that you need "perfect" competition to yield perfectly low
prices, but perfect competition rarely exists in the real world as it
requires consumers to have perfect knowledge of all alternate products
and their prices. A regional system is far from perfect, but it would
provide much more competition than exists now, but certainly far from
perfect competition.


It wouldn't provide any real competition. The users wouldn't have a choice
in providers.