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#1
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Odd clearance -- airway given twice
The stock clearance into HPN from the POU area is IGN V157 HAARP. It's
been that for as long as I've been flying around here. Recently, they've started issuing IGN V157 VALRE V157 HAARP, which boils down to exactly the same thing (VALRE is just a bend in V157). Today, I asked the controller about it. His response is that he just reads what gets printed on the strip, and they've been wondering the same thing in the Tracon :-). Does anybody have any idea why the ATC computer would be generating clearances with the same airway mentioned twice? |
#2
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Hi Roy haven't talked to you directly in years.
Put VALRE into Google this is what came back. My gut feeling is that since it is designed to handle high performance aircraft in reality all traffic follows this flow with VALRE being condiered by the computer as a feeder?/transistion fix. http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0507/00651VALRE.PDF It appears the date on the chart was effective 7/05/2005. Probably required some ARTCC computer programming Al "Roy Smith" wrote in message ... The stock clearance into HPN from the POU area is IGN V157 HAARP. It's been that for as long as I've been flying around here. Recently, they've started issuing IGN V157 VALRE V157 HAARP, which boils down to exactly the same thing (VALRE is just a bend in V157). Today, I asked the controller about it. His response is that he just reads what gets printed on the strip, and they've been wondering the same thing in the Tracon :-). Does anybody have any idea why the ATC computer would be generating clearances with the same airway mentioned twice? |
#3
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"Roy Smith" wrote in message =
... The stock clearance into HPN from the POU area is IGN V157 HAARP. = It's=20 been that for as long as I've been flying around here. Recently, = they've=20 started issuing IGN V157 VALRE V157 HAARP, which boils down to exactly = the=20 same thing (VALRE is just a bend in V157). =20 Today, I asked the controller about it. His response is that he just = reads=20 what gets printed on the strip, and they've been wondering the same = thing=20 in the Tracon :-). =20 Does anybody have any idea why the ATC computer would be generating=20 clearances with the same airway mentioned twice? In a non-radar environment, as I recall from the days before radar, a non-compulsory reporting point becomes compulsory if it is mentioned by name in a clearance. I'd guess ATC *really* wants to know when you pass VALRE, even if the radar goes out of service. |
#4
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"John R. Copeland" wrote: In a non-radar environment, as I recall from the days before radar, a non-compulsory reporting point becomes compulsory if it is mentioned by name in a clearance. The rules for non-radar have remained pretty much unchanged since whenever the U.S. signed onto the ICAO conventions. I suspect we were pretty much in charge then. ;-) A non-compulsory reporting point only becomes compulsory when ATC requests you report it. Mentioning in a clearance does not make it a compulsory reporting point, nor has it since ICAO conventions were established circa 1950. If you have an authoritative cite, I would readily concede the point. |
#5
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IIRC the compulsory reporting intersections were the filled in triangle.
Non-compulsory were triangles. Compulsory wasn't required once you were in radar contact. Reaching a previous clearance limit and the final approach fix were compulsory too. Al "John R. Copeland" wrote in message . .. "Roy Smith" wrote in message ... The stock clearance into HPN from the POU area is IGN V157 HAARP. It's been that for as long as I've been flying around here. Recently, they've started issuing IGN V157 VALRE V157 HAARP, which boils down to exactly the same thing (VALRE is just a bend in V157). Today, I asked the controller about it. His response is that he just reads what gets printed on the strip, and they've been wondering the same thing in the Tracon :-). Does anybody have any idea why the ATC computer would be generating clearances with the same airway mentioned twice? In a non-radar environment, as I recall from the days before radar, a non-compulsory reporting point becomes compulsory if it is mentioned by name in a clearance. I'd guess ATC *really* wants to know when you pass VALRE, even if the radar goes out of service. |
#6
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Hi Roy,
I don't have an answer but I may have a "clue." I too noticed that clearances have been including a specific fix even though it was on the airway in the original clearance. My clearance was FRG..BDR.V91.MOONI.V91.GFL..4B6. Looking at the Lo-Alt Enroute Jepp, I see that MOONI is on V91. However, after MOONI the airway changes to include V39. From a software perspective, the computer may view the segment north of MOONI differently requiring a call-out of MOONI. In your situation, the system *may* be viewing the segment after VALRE differently because of the dogleg. We may never know if a programmer did something to cause this anomaly. Probably not even that programmer! Makes me wonder if there's a defect report somewhere... Marco Leon "Roy Smith" wrote in message ... The stock clearance into HPN from the POU area is IGN V157 HAARP. It's been that for as long as I've been flying around here. Recently, they've started issuing IGN V157 VALRE V157 HAARP, which boils down to exactly the same thing (VALRE is just a bend in V157). Today, I asked the controller about it. His response is that he just reads what gets printed on the strip, and they've been wondering the same thing in the Tracon :-). Does anybody have any idea why the ATC computer would be generating clearances with the same airway mentioned twice? |
#7
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"Roy Smith" wrote in message
... The stock clearance into HPN from the POU area is IGN V157 HAARP. It's been that for as long as I've been flying around here. Recently, they've started issuing IGN V157 VALRE V157 HAARP, which boils down to exactly the same thing (VALRE is just a bend in V157). Today, I asked the controller about it. His response is that he just reads what gets printed on the strip, and they've been wondering the same thing in the Tracon :-). Does anybody have any idea why the ATC computer would be generating clearances with the same airway mentioned twice? Don't know if anyone's still looking at this post, but I have another theory -- you used DUAT or DUATS to file the flight plan. Both of those systems (I am a lead programmer for DTC's DUAT system) have a requirement to make sure the route of flight is validated by the ARTCC host computer system. There was a situation where the ARTCC computers were rejecting the DUAT flight plans (about 12 years ago) because the ARTCC computers don't have all of the U.S. fixes in their databases. The solution for the DUAT systems was to insert a fix along an airway when the airway leaves the first center's airspace and enters another center's airspace. Once the DUAT system sent the flight plan into the FAA's systems, the controller just reads off the route as they get it. |
#8
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Roy, my guess is that ATC started doing that to prevent pilots from
just going Direct To HAARP with their GPS as soon as they pass IGN, thus skipping the bend in the middle of the airway. Shaun Eli www.BrainChampagne.com Brain Champagne: Clever Comedy for the Smart Mind (sm) |
#9
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FAA order B3838347 dated 07/01/2005 requires Air Traffic Controllers to
read bends at airway fixes within 75 miles of the departure airport. Probably, that is what is coming into play here. |
#10
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In article . com,
"Lynne" wrote: FAA order B3838347 dated 07/01/2005 requires Air Traffic Controllers to read bends at airway fixes within 75 miles of the departure airport. Probably, that is what is coming into play here. That explains it, thanks. Any idea what the logic was behind that? |
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