Libelle Camelbak stowage

A long while back somebody (Ian Molesworth?) mentioned "lashing a
Camelbak under the beam supporting the stick" in a Standard Libelle.

With the season visible on the horizon I'm wondering how he did that.
There's obviously sufficient space available under the beam and little
chance of fouling the controls because the stick linkages are are inside
the beam and the rudder cables run in plastic tubes attached to the
cockpit walls. My question is - how is the Camelbak tied down to stop it
getting where it shouldn't be? There are no obvious tie down points in
that area.

If anybody on r.a.s has done this I'd very much like to know the secret.

TIA
Martin


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Good heavens. Do I understand you to mean under the seat pan? Why on
earth would you want to take such a chance? "Little chance" is too
much for me. I put the water in a pouch behind the seat backor stuffed
behind my head.

Sarah

Martin Gregorie wrote:
A long while back somebody (Ian Molesworth?) mentioned "lashing a
Camelbak under the beam supporting the stick" in a Standard Libelle.

With the season visible on the horizon I'm wondering how he did that.
There's obviously sufficient space available under the beam and little
chance of fouling the controls because the stick linkages are are inside
the beam and the rudder cables run in plastic tubes attached to the
cockpit walls. My question is - how is the Camelbak tied down to stop it
getting where it shouldn't be? There are no obvious tie down points in
that area.

If anybody on r.a.s has done this I'd very much like to know the secret.

TIA
Martin


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Why dont you just put it behind your head like everyone
else?!

The seat pan / control column support wasnt designed
to have a camelbak 'lashed' to it and its easier to
work with gravity than against it!!

Gav

At 22:06 11 January 2007, Martin Gregorie wrote:
A long while back somebody (Ian Molesworth?) mentioned
'lashing a
Camelbak under the beam supporting the stick' in a
Standard Libelle.

With the season visible on the horizon I'm wondering
how he did that.
There's obviously sufficient space available under
the beam and little
chance of fouling the controls because the stick linkages
are are inside
the beam and the rudder cables run in plastic tubes
attached to the
cockpit walls. My question is - how is the Camelbak
tied down to stop it
getting where it shouldn't be? There are no obvious
tie down points in
that area.

If anybody on r.a.s has done this I'd very much like
to know the secret.

TIA
Martin


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

I, like probably most glider pilots, put my Camelbak behind my head
next to my battery. But a cautionary tale seems appropriate here.

Last Summer a club member had his glider totaled when his battery set
fire to his empty Camelbak. The probable causes, pinched wires and too
big a battery fuse, were certainly preventable. However, it's clear
that the Camelbak acted as tinder for the overheated battery, and the
fire may not have occurred if the Camelbak hadn't been placed next to
the battery.

-John

Gav Goudie wrote:
Why dont you just put it behind your head like everyone
else?!

The seat pan / control column support wasnt designed
to have a camelbak 'lashed' to it and its easier to
work with gravity than against it!!

jcarlyle wrote:
I, like probably most glider pilots, put my Camelbak behind my head
next to my battery. But a cautionary tale seems appropriate here.

Last Summer a club member had his glider totaled when his battery set
fire to his empty Camelbak. The probable causes, pinched wires and too
big a battery fuse, were certainly preventable. However, it's clear
that the Camelbak acted as tinder for the overheated battery, and the
fire may not have occurred if the Camelbak hadn't been placed next to
the battery.

Ouch. But, surely that means putting the Camelbak through the hatch
behind the spars? That makes my teeth itch: there are far too many
control runs back there for it to get tangled up with.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Leaving aside the fire or short issue, you need to consider what it
would feel like to be hit in the back of the head with an 80 lb sack.
Many of the first and second generation gliders have the "storage
shelf" level with the back of the pilot's head and nothing (no bulkhead
or other structure except a flimsy headrest) in between. A gallon of
water weighs about 8 lbs, and it's very possible to induce a rapid 10G
deceleration in an otherwise survivable crash (many texts talk about
survivable 20G pulses). 10Gs operating on 8lbs of water with a
straight shot to the back of your head or neck could put you in a world
of hurt.

At minumum, you need to have a system of tying the bag down to some
solid structure. If using the shelf, you'll probably need to run
anchor bolts down to the bulkhead surrounding the landing gear. LS,
for example, has very detailed instructions on doing this.

I've seen a couple of guys go to the trouble of mounting water supplies
behind the main bulkead (in front of the spars and out of the way of
the mixers/ control rods). They fill the supply through a tube. I
would worry about cleaning the container out periodically lest it get
funky over time, but I'm sure they've thought of this.

Cheers,

Erik Mann
LS8-18 P3






jcarlyle wrote:
I, like probably most glider pilots, put my Camelbak behind my head
next to my battery. But a cautionary tale seems appropriate here.

Last Summer a club member had his glider totaled when his battery set
fire to his empty Camelbak. The probable causes, pinched wires and too
big a battery fuse, were certainly preventable. However, it's clear
that the Camelbak acted as tinder for the overheated battery, and the
fire may not have occurred if the Camelbak hadn't been placed next to
the battery.

-John

Gav Goudie wrote:
Why dont you just put it behind your head like everyone
else?!

The seat pan / control column support wasnt designed
to have a camelbak 'lashed' to it and its easier to
work with gravity than against it!!

On Friday, January 12, 2007 at 2:30:48 PM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
Leaving aside the fire or short issue, you need to consider what it
would feel like to be hit in the back of the head with an 80 lb sack.
Many of the first and second generation gliders have the "storage
shelf" level with the back of the pilot's head and nothing (no bulkhead
or other structure except a flimsy headrest) in between. A gallon of
water weighs about 8 lbs, and it's very possible to induce a rapid 10G
deceleration in an otherwise survivable crash (many texts talk about
survivable 20G pulses). 10Gs operating on 8lbs of water with a
straight shot to the back of your head or neck could put you in a world
of hurt.
At minumum, you need to have a system of tying the bag down to some
solid structure. If using the shelf, you'll probably need to run
anchor bolts down to the bulkhead surrounding the landing gear. LS,
for example, has very detailed instructions on doing this.
I've seen a couple of guys go to the trouble of mounting water supplies
behind the main bulkead (in front of the spars and out of the way of
the mixers/ control rods). They fill the supply through a tube. I
would worry about cleaning the container out periodically lest it get
funky over time, but I'm sure they've thought of this.
Cheers,
Erik Mann
LS8-18 P3
jcarlyle wrote:
I, like probably most glider pilots, put my Camelbak behind my head
next to my battery. But a cautionary tale seems appropriate here.

Last Summer a club member had his glider totaled when his battery set
fire to his empty Camelbak. The probable causes, pinched wires and too
big a battery fuse, were certainly preventable. However, it's clear
that the Camelbak acted as tinder for the overheated battery, and the
fire may not have occurred if the Camelbak hadn't been placed next to
the battery.

-John

Gav Goudie wrote:
Why dont you just put it behind your head like everyone
else?!

The seat pan / control column support wasnt designed
to have a camelbak 'lashed' to it and its easier to
work with gravity than against it!!
AFAIK, being involved in multiple accident investigations, an 11g deceleration will fail your restraints and liquefy your internal organs. So securing your Camel full of ice and using it as a cooling headrest should be well outside risk considerations...the oxygen rack is even scarier, even though my charged steel bottle only weighs 13#. Without getting into why I offer this, I would defer to anyone that can show their work...

On 5/2/21 1:41 PM, Tony wrote:
On Friday, January 12, 2007 at 2:30:48 PM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
Leaving aside the fire or short issue, you need to consider what
it would feel like to be hit in the back of the head with an 80 lb
sack. Many of the first and second generation gliders have the
"storage shelf" level with the back of the pilot's head and nothing
(no bulkhead or other structure except a flimsy headrest) in
between. A gallon of water weighs about 8 lbs, and it's very
possible to induce a rapid 10G deceleration in an otherwise
survivable crash (many texts talk about survivable 20G pulses).
10Gs operating on 8lbs of water with a straight shot to the back of
your head or neck could put you in a world of hurt. At minumum, you
need to have a system of tying the bag down to some solid
structure. If using the shelf, you'll probably need to run anchor
bolts down to the bulkhead surrounding the landing gear. LS, for
example, has very detailed instructions on doing this. I've seen a
couple of guys go to the trouble of mounting water supplies behind
the main bulkead (in front of the spars and out of the way of the
mixers/ control rods). They fill the supply through a tube. I would
worry about cleaning the container out periodically lest it get
funky over time, but I'm sure they've thought of this. Cheers, Erik
Mann LS8-18 P3 jcarlyle wrote:
I, like probably most glider pilots, put my Camelbak behind my
head next to my battery. But a cautionary tale seems appropriate
here.

Last Summer a club member had his glider totaled when his battery
set fire to his empty Camelbak. The probable causes, pinched
wires and too big a battery fuse, were certainly preventable.
However, it's clear that the Camelbak acted as tinder for the
overheated battery, and the fire may not have occurred if the
Camelbak hadn't been placed next to the battery.

-John

Gav Goudie wrote:
Why dont you just put it behind your head like everyone else?!

The seat pan / control column support wasnt designed to have a
camelbak 'lashed' to it and its easier to work with gravity
than against it!!
AFAIK, being involved in multiple accident investigations, an 11g
deceleration will fail your restraints and liquefy your internal
organs. So securing your Camel full of ice and using it as a cooling
headrest should be well outside risk considerations...the oxygen rack
is even scarier, even though my charged steel bottle only weighs 13#.
Without getting into why I offer this, I would defer to anyone that
can show their work...


Here's my chance to (maybe, har har) set new RAS records for
contributing to an old thread (14 years) while maximizing thread
drift!!! (Will I need a new record category? Who's in charge of RAS,
anyway?) I blame this on the thunderstorm that just drove me indoors...

So, OK, there's always devils in the details, but on the assumption that
the following quoted statement lacks any intentional hyperbole "...an
11g deceleration will...liquefy your internal organs", if he could, Col
Paul Stapp (and many other investigators in years since) and
considerable, multi-field, crash data (e.g. from aviation, auto racing,
etc.) might beg to differ. Many a (sore and bruised) person has survived
up to 20g decelerations, if I'm to believe lots of "technical crash
stuff" I've read over the years. And, no, I'm not volunteering to become
one!

That quibble noted, strapping things firmly (in addition to yourself, of
course, hyuk hyuk), is definitely a good thing, in the event of
crash-induced deceleration...

Bob W.

On Sun, 02 May 2021 12:41:33 -0700, Tony wrote:

AFAIK, being involved in multiple accident investigations, an 11g
deceleration will fail your restraints and liquefy your internal organs.
So securing your Camel full of ice and using it as a cooling headrest
should be well outside risk considerations...the oxygen rack is even
scarier, even though my charged steel bottle only weighs 13#. Without
getting into why I offer this, I would defer to anyone that can show
their work...

I just use the bum bag thingy that Glasfaser sell for fitting in Libelles.
Its well made, pretty strong with a 2mm fibreglass base and clips rather
tenaciously to the rigging spigots on top of the mainspars.



--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Tell that to these guys...

https://vimeo.com/292235615

Dan
5J

On 5/2/21 1:41 PM, Tony wrote:
AFAIK, being involved in multiple accident investigations, an 11g deceleration will fail your restraints and liquefy your internal organs. So securing your Camel full of ice and using it as a cooling headrest should be well outside risk considerations...the oxygen rack is even scarier, even though my charged steel bottle only weighs 13#. Without getting into why I offer this, I would defer to anyone that can show their work...