what is it about women?

Questions regarding females and gliding:

Please find below,
several questions considering constitution, psychology,
and motivations of women,
for your sincere proffers and posits
hereunto:

1. Why do more females not fly gliders?
(Therein may be answer to why are there so few women
glider pilots.)
a) are they afraid?

b) do they feel no sense of gain by accomplishing
flight?

c) is their (female) fear mechanism and psychology
different from that of males? how?

d) is their (female) thrill and joy psychology intrinsically
different from that of males? how?

2. Why do more females not seek out gliding aviation
and sport much as they may for male company and sport
among hang glider pilots and for among male parachute
jumpers and sport?

3. If male glider pilots came to the airfield in Limousines,
wore tatoos and had ear and tongue piercings, used
and gave away currently popular illegal drugs, and
flashed Gold debtcards, would more females be attracted
to gliding than now?

4. Is this subject forbidden in America or in worldwide
discussion of gliding?

Your posits and proffers from males and females, giving
serious thought and expository composition, shall be
interesting. goferit.

Dancing on clouds,

Keep it up!

Jim Culp USA
GatorCity Florida

'Have glider
Will travel.'

Thanks Mitch, but that reply was not finished and not
meant to be posted yet.

On a more serious note, there's another point I'd like
to add.

I've noticed that a large number of the older male
pilots in soaring didn't start out flying in gliders.
Many are ex-airline and military pilots. While these
occupations were glorified to young boys back in the
day, women were discouraged from pursuing them. An
all-female flight crew is still newsworthy, and women
are still a small minority of airline captains.

The percentage of young women vs. young men in soaring
is rising but the overall number of youth in soaring
is still low. WSPA is working wonders offering scholarships
to young women and offering a fun week-long seminar
once a year.

If you want more women in soaring, take a proactive
stance yourself. Go take your niece/sister/wife/daughter/friend
for a ride and buy her an intro lesson or two. If they
love it, then you've just introduced another diehard
to soaring.

It's a serious question and your suggestion in point 4. is close to the
truth. I don't want to offend any women by making any generalisations about
their characteristics, strengths or weaknesses in case I get lambasted for
being a sexist or for stereotyping or any other such act of political
incorrectness and so this issue will fail to get any proper consideration
from me or many others here just as it is with so many issues in modern
life.

No! stuff that.

They just hate it. How many women compared to men will go for a day at the
club with you? The few that do come with me always regret it and so I just
don't ask them along anymore. The percentage who like it mirrors the number
of women who are members of clubs - 3% or so. Women don't thrill seek, they
are timid and cautious or less reckless (Oh.... look at me pandering to
sensitivities again). Basically women come from Mars and there are no
gliders on Mars. That's how it is and you can try to force change with
positive discrimination and schemes and systems but what for; to turn women
into men? It is not like the education issue in the 60's. There is no
prejudice, and there are no substantial barriers to women who want to go
gliding. They can do it if they want, its just they don't want to and they
never will.


"Jim Culp" wrote in message
...


Questions regarding females and gliding:

Please find below,
several questions considering constitution, psychology,
and motivations of women,
for your sincere proffers and posits
hereunto:

1. Why do more females not fly gliders?
(Therein may be answer to why are there so few women
glider pilots.)
a) are they afraid?

b) do they feel no sense of gain by accomplishing
flight?

c) is their (female) fear mechanism and psychology
different from that of males? how?

d) is their (female) thrill and joy psychology intrinsically
different from that of males? how?

2. Why do more females not seek out gliding aviation
and sport much as they may for male company and sport
among hang glider pilots and for among male parachute
jumpers and sport?

3. If male glider pilots came to the airfield in Limousines,
wore tatoos and had ear and tongue piercings, used
and gave away currently popular illegal drugs, and
flashed Gold debtcards, would more females be attracted
to gliding than now?

4. Is this subject forbidden in America or in worldwide
discussion of gliding?

Your posits and proffers from males and females, giving
serious thought and expository composition, shall be
interesting. goferit.

Dancing on clouds,

Keep it up!

Jim Culp USA
GatorCity Florida

'Have glider
Will travel.'

"John Mason" wrote:

I don't want to offend any women by making
any generalisations about their characteristics,

Right. Nice disclaimer. I wonder if this wasn't complete trolling, but I don't
care, gonna respond anyway. As you said, "stuff that."

They just hate it. How many women compared to
men will go for a day at the club with you? The few
that do come with me always regret it and so I just
don't ask them along anymore.

I'm not surprised (that they regret it), since you already have your mind made
up that 97% of us "just hate it". Sounds to me as if you'd rather be there
alone anyway.

Women don't thrill seek, they are timid and cautious
or less reckless [snip]

Less reckless is often mistaken for timid and cautious. True, most of us
"Vagino-Americans" (what a GREAT term!) are less likely than you testosterone
machines of climbing into an aircraft to see how many revolutions it will spin
in x-number of feet before we know how to competently do slow flight. Oh...but
of course, I'm not making any generalizations about the characteristics of men,
either. We like thrills just like you guys do, but yes, if we're going to be
the one at the controls, we like to have a thorough understanding of what we're
doing first. If you want to call that being timid and cautious, be my guest.

That's how it is and you can try to force change with
positive discrimination and schemes and systems but
what for; to turn women into men?

Excuse me? You might not have noticed, but not ALL of us women glider pilots
talk, walk, think, dress, act or look like men. I still like to smell like a
flower at least when I arrive at the gliderport, and I still reach for my
hairbrush and lip gloss after I've helped get my glider back into the hangar
and taken the weights out at the end of the day. But that doesn't mean that I'm
not just as excited as any man when I see the Vario shoot up and the altimeter
on the incline or when I've just touched down *like buttah*.

It is not like the education issue in the 60's. There is
no prejudice, and there are no substantial barriers to
women who want to go gliding.

There are no substantial barriers--that is, everyone involved in the training
aspect that I've ever met has welcomed me. But no prejudice? Are you serious?!
The majority of men where I fly are wonderful people--supportive, encouraging,
and helpful, and they act like gentlemen. There are, however, a few who have
their minds made up about women and why we're there (or not there) and who
clearly believe that we should never have been given the opportunity to
infiltrate this little corner of THEIR world. If any woman's intro to gliders
involved one of the latter group, it's no wonder they regret being there. After
reading your post, I'd be surprised if you weren't part of that group.

They can do it if they want, its just they don't
want to and they never will.

Some don't and never will; some men don't like to shop and never will either
.... so what's your point? Some women share the interest and fascination and fly
gliders with as much or more enthusiasm and passion as you guys, whether at the
controls or as a passenger, whether at 5000 feet or 15000 feet, whether right
above their home airport or on a cross-country. It's just easier for people
like you to ignore the 3% of us (repeating your number, I have no idea if
that's accurate or not) who DO appreciate and love to fly so you can make the
sweeping generalizations and blanket statements that you just made.

Sorry your disclaimer wasn't effective ... it's just that you did exactly what
you said you didn't want to do -- offend, be sexist, stereotype.

Overall, this has been an amusing thread.
--Shirley (shopping for a dress ... imagine that, John, a woman glider pilot
who hasn't turned into a man!)

Shirley wrote:
Some don't and never will; some men don't like to shop and never will either
... so what's your point? Some women share the interest and fascination and fly
gliders with as much or more enthusiasm and passion as you guys, whether at the
controls or as a passenger, whether at 5000 feet or 15000 feet, whether right
above their home airport or on a cross-country. It's just easier for people
like you to ignore the 3% of us (repeating your number, I have no idea if
that's accurate or not) who DO appreciate and love to fly so you can make the
sweeping generalizations and blanket statements that you just made.

Sorry your disclaimer wasn't effective ... it's just that you did exactly what
you said you didn't want to do -- offend, be sexist, stereotype.


Overall, this has been an amusing thread.
--Shirley (shopping for a dress ... imagine that, John, a woman glider pilot
who hasn't turned into a man!)

I've had some interesting encounters.

I couldn't talk my brother (motorcycle-riding actual cowboy who owns
cows type) into flying in our ASK 13, but his pregnant wife went up
without any coaxing at all - for an hour!

I've seen that sort of thing fairly often when we'd have "ride day" to
get people out to the airport.

A father bought his 15 year old daughter a glider ride for her birthday.
She seemed shy, so I gave her the standard gentle turn ride 98% of the
people get. After we landed, he asked her how she liked it. "It was fun
but not as exciting as I'd hoped". If I'd only known she was a carnival
ride freak _before_ the ride!

And I notice the skydiver group at our airport is 40% women (you won't
catch me jumping out of an airplane), so I doubt that it's lack
testosterone that's keeping them out of gliders.

No solutions, but I think there's an audience there, we're just not
singing the right song.

--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

In article ,
Lauren Reitz wrote:

I've noticed that a large number of the older male
pilots in soaring didn't start out flying in gliders.
Many are ex-airline and military pilots.

I've noticed that when I've visited soaring sites in the USA, but it is
*not* the case here in New Zealand. Most glider pilots here seem to be
computer programmers, accountants, or self-employed small
businessmen/tradesmen/farmers.


If you want more women in soaring, take a proactive
stance yourself. Go take your niece/sister/wife/daughter/friend
for a ride and buy her an intro lesson or two. If they
love it, then you've just introduced another diehard
to soaring.

It's not that easy, but I've been trying ... going through my logbook,
it looks as if I've taken 37 males for a glider flight but "only" 18
females. Five of the females have come back for further passenger
flights (a higher proportion than for the males), but two of the males
have learned to fly gliders, at least to first solo, while none of the
females have. Several of the females have expressed interest in
learning, but seem to have instead continued with their
skiing/snowboarding or sailing.

My 13 year old daughter has in the last couple of weeks sudenly
expressed interest in learning to fly, after many years of only wanting
to be a pasenger, and fairly indifferent at that. I'm intending to take
the opportunity to see if her friends want to try a glider flight as
well.

-- Bruce

Go Shirley

We have been trying to improve the "balance" of membership for years.

Our experience with female membership is -
There are less chances of being exposed to gliding for females.
Therefore there are lower percentages.
Our hobby/sport involves a lot of dirt, sweat and sunshine, and
occasional mud and grease. (so do many other sports- think of BMX.) but
many ladies prefer to avoid the muck.
Women tend to get patronised, and the type of person who makes a good
glider pilot seldom likes being patronised.
Gliding is a very individual sport, that involves a lot of team/social
interaction. Our ladies like that.
Soaring takes a lot of time, and many women are busy raising families
(often single handedly) which mitigates against the neccessary time
commitments.

I hope our club is getting to the point where the ladies reach critical
mass (currently 20%) - presumably the culture will change a bit, and
maybe we will find and retain a more representative membership.

Since we started we have attracted about 25% of new members being female.

Now - on trying to attract non-white membership - One out of 25 so
far... In a country where "European descent" is less than 10% of the
population we "palefaces" have virtual exclusivity in gliding. Why?

Cheers
Bruce

Shirley wrote:
"John Mason" wrote:


I don't want to offend any women by making
any generalisations about their characteristics,


Right. Nice disclaimer. I wonder if this wasn't complete trolling, but I don't
care, gonna respond anyway. As you said, "stuff that."


They just hate it. How many women compared to
men will go for a day at the club with you? The few
that do come with me always regret it and so I just
don't ask them along anymore.


I'm not surprised (that they regret it), since you already have your mind made
up that 97% of us "just hate it". Sounds to me as if you'd rather be there
alone anyway.


Women don't thrill seek, they are timid and cautious
or less reckless [snip]


Less reckless is often mistaken for timid and cautious. True, most of us
"Vagino-Americans" (what a GREAT term!) are less likely than you testosterone
machines of climbing into an aircraft to see how many revolutions it will spin
in x-number of feet before we know how to competently do slow flight. Oh...but
of course, I'm not making any generalizations about the characteristics of men,
either. We like thrills just like you guys do, but yes, if we're going to be
the one at the controls, we like to have a thorough understanding of what we're
doing first. If you want to call that being timid and cautious, be my guest.


That's how it is and you can try to force change with
positive discrimination and schemes and systems but
what for; to turn women into men?


Excuse me? You might not have noticed, but not ALL of us women glider pilots
talk, walk, think, dress, act or look like men. I still like to smell like a
flower at least when I arrive at the gliderport, and I still reach for my
hairbrush and lip gloss after I've helped get my glider back into the hangar
and taken the weights out at the end of the day. But that doesn't mean that I'm
not just as excited as any man when I see the Vario shoot up and the altimeter
on the incline or when I've just touched down *like buttah*.


It is not like the education issue in the 60's. There is
no prejudice, and there are no substantial barriers to
women who want to go gliding.


There are no substantial barriers--that is, everyone involved in the training
aspect that I've ever met has welcomed me. But no prejudice? Are you serious?!
The majority of men where I fly are wonderful people--supportive, encouraging,
and helpful, and they act like gentlemen. There are, however, a few who have
their minds made up about women and why we're there (or not there) and who
clearly believe that we should never have been given the opportunity to
infiltrate this little corner of THEIR world. If any woman's intro to gliders
involved one of the latter group, it's no wonder they regret being there. After
reading your post, I'd be surprised if you weren't part of that group.


They can do it if they want, its just they don't
want to and they never will.


Some don't and never will; some men don't like to shop and never will either
... so what's your point? Some women share the interest and fascination and fly
gliders with as much or more enthusiasm and passion as you guys, whether at the
controls or as a passenger, whether at 5000 feet or 15000 feet, whether right
above their home airport or on a cross-country. It's just easier for people
like you to ignore the 3% of us (repeating your number, I have no idea if
that's accurate or not) who DO appreciate and love to fly so you can make the
sweeping generalizations and blanket statements that you just made.

Sorry your disclaimer wasn't effective ... it's just that you did exactly what
you said you didn't want to do -- offend, be sexist, stereotype.

Overall, this has been an amusing thread.
--Shirley (shopping for a dress ... imagine that, John, a woman glider pilot
who hasn't turned into a man!)

I think its more to do with the fact that as soon as
a female turns up at the airfield she has 30 dirty
old men trying fondle her.

Gliding men are, in general, sad old men who have forgotten
that they are no longer attractive to women under 30
( or to be honest any woman of any age). If you would
like proof of this then turn up to any gliding club
in the UK where a University Club flies (i.e. to provide
a steady steam of women as test specimens) and watch
the old duffers try to grope them.

It is truly a disgusting spectacle to watch.

Owain



At 12:30 12 January 2004, Bruce wrote:
Go Shirley

We have been trying to improve the 'balance' of membership
for years.

Our experience with female membership is -
There are less chances of being exposed to gliding
for females.
Therefore there are lower percentages.
Our hobby/sport involves a lot of dirt, sweat and sunshine,
and
occasional mud and grease. (so do many other sports-
think of BMX.) but
many ladies prefer to avoid the muck.
Women tend to get patronised, and the type of person
who makes a good
glider pilot seldom likes being patronised.
Gliding is a very individual sport, that involves a
lot of team/social
interaction. Our ladies like that.
Soaring takes a lot of time, and many women are busy
raising families
(often single handedly) which mitigates against the
neccessary time
commitments.

I hope our club is getting to the point where the ladies
reach critical
mass (currently 20%) - presumably the culture will
change a bit, and
maybe we will find and retain a more representative
membership.

Since we started we have attracted about 25% of new
members being female.

Now - on trying to attract non-white membership - One
out of 25 so
far... In a country where 'European descent' is less
than 10% of the
population we 'palefaces' have virtual exclusivity
in gliding. Why?

Cheers
Bruce

Shirley wrote:
'John Mason' wrote:


I don't want to offend any women by making
any generalisations about their characteristics,


Right. Nice disclaimer. I wonder if this wasn't complete
trolling, but I don't
care, gonna respond anyway. As you said, 'stuff that.'


They just hate it. How many women compared to
men will go for a day at the club with you? The few

that do come with me always regret it and so I just
don't ask them along anymore.


I'm not surprised (that they regret it), since you
already have your mind made
up that 97% of us 'just hate it'. Sounds to me as
if you'd rather be there
alone anyway.


Women don't thrill seek, they are timid and cautious

or less reckless [snip]


Less reckless is often mistaken for timid and cautious.
True, most of us
'Vagino-Americans' (what a GREAT term!) are less likely
than you testosterone
machines of climbing into an aircraft to see how many
revolutions it will spin
in x-number of feet before we know how to competently
do slow flight. Oh...but
of course, I'm not making any generalizations about
the characteristics of men,
either. We like thrills just like you guys do, but
yes, if we're going to be
the one at the controls, we like to have a thorough
understanding of what we're
doing first. If you want to call that being timid
and cautious, be my guest.


That's how it is and you can try to force change with
positive discrimination and schemes and systems but

what for; to turn women into men?


Excuse me? You might not have noticed, but not ALL
of us women glider pilots
talk, walk, think, dress, act or look like men. I
still like to smell like a
flower at least when I arrive at the gliderport, and
I still reach for my
hairbrush and lip gloss after I've helped get my glider
back into the hangar
and taken the weights out at the end of the day. But
that doesn't mean that I'm
not just as excited as any man when I see the Vario
shoot up and the altimeter
on the incline or when I've just touched down *like
buttah*.


It is not like the education issue in the 60's. There
is
no prejudice, and there are no substantial barriers
to
women who want to go gliding.


There are no substantial barriers--that is, everyone
involved in the training
aspect that I've ever met has welcomed me. But no
prejudice? Are you serious?!
The majority of men where I fly are wonderful people--supportive,
encouraging,
and helpful, and they act like gentlemen. There are,
however, a few who have
their minds made up about women and why we're there
(or not there) and who
clearly believe that we should never have been given
the opportunity to
infiltrate this little corner of THEIR world. If any
woman's intro to gliders
involved one of the latter group, it's no wonder they
regret being there. After
reading your post, I'd be surprised if you weren't
part of that group.


They can do it if they want, its just they don't
want to and they never will.


Some don't and never will; some men don't like to
shop and never will either
... so what's your point? Some women share the interest
and fascination and fly
gliders with as much or more enthusiasm and passion
as you guys, whether at the
controls or as a passenger, whether at 5000 feet or
15000 feet, whether right
above their home airport or on a cross-country. It's
just easier for people
like you to ignore the 3% of us (repeating your number,
I have no idea if
that's accurate or not) who DO appreciate and love
to fly so you can make the
sweeping generalizations and blanket statements that
you just made.

Sorry your disclaimer wasn't effective ... it's just
that you did exactly what
you said you didn't want to do -- offend, be sexist,
stereotype.

Overall, this has been an amusing thread.
--Shirley (shopping for a dress ... imagine that,
John, a woman glider pilot
who hasn't turned into a man!)

We must be lucky.

Average age 40 although most of us are no doubt unattractive to the
opposite sex ;-)
We try to make the club a place where we are happy to bring our kids
(mine are 5 and 9) and where the nubile ones are not harassed. We have
three members under 20, and a number in their 30s although most of us
are in the 40-50 range.

We have managed to eject the undesirables, gently. (you don't have to be
old to be a duffer)

Acceptible social behaviour somehow always becomes an issue when you
have too many of the testosterone challenged (well it's making my hair
fall out) in one place. That's why I said I'm hoping for a change in
culture as we get the number of ladies up. Funny how far a little
respect and diginity go.

Bruce

Owain Walters wrote:
I think its more to do with the fact that as soon as
a female turns up at the airfield she has 30 dirty
old men trying fondle her.

Gliding men are, in general, sad old men who have forgotten
that they are no longer attractive to women under 30
( or to be honest any woman of any age). If you would
like proof of this then turn up to any gliding club
in the UK where a University Club flies (i.e. to provide
a steady steam of women as test specimens) and watch
the old duffers try to grope them.

It is truly a disgusting spectacle to watch.

Owain

It's not that we do a poor job of attracting women to soaring. We do a
lousy job of attracting anyone.

So those that find their way to us are really fascinated with the idea
of flying, and of flying gliders specifically. And they have the time
and money to pursue it.

And while, as a father of two ten-year-old girls, I hope we're doing a
better job in the U.S. of raising children who are less culturally
inhibited and constrained by gender stereotypes than we were, it's
undeniable that boys still get a lot more encouragement--both subtle
and overt--to jump off tall buildings, ride their bicycles at high
rates of speed, and build scale model airplanes than do girls. As one
poster commented: when many of today's best soaring pilots were
growing up, military and commercial flying was glorified to them but
not to young women of similar backgrounds. It's not so terribly
different today.

Because soaring is an obscure sport done mostly by, let's face it,
older men, the social appeal for young women is pretty low. At the
same time, many, though by no means all, "older" women (i.e., just for
the sake of argument, say 35) are either consumed by career or family
or both. And unlike men, who--as they age--tend to accumulate money
and discretionary time, women tend to accumulate children and
husbands, husbands who expect their wives to raise the family and take
care of the house, thus affording the husbands the discretionary time
to golf, tinker with cars, fly, or whatever.

Many avid male soaring pilots complain about the lack of interest
their wives take in their flying (though I am one of the lucky ones in
that regard) even while some condescendingly speak of the many ways
they can participate...as crews or support persons. Many male pilots
fly, and even attend contests, without the support of their wives or
families. It's not perfect, but it works.

On the other hand, it's hard to imagine your average American husband
agreeing to take on all the weekend chores so his wife can spend the
day or the weekend at the gliderport. And let's not even talk about
the conflict that would ensue when she wants to spend two weeks of
her--and potentially his--vacation time at a contest!

Look at sports such as skiing, hang gliding, parachuting, soccer, or
basketball and you'll find no shortage of young women who enjoy
thrilling pursuits, high-stress endeavors, and keen competition. It's
attracting those women to soaring that's difficult, just as it is
attracting young men. I suspect when we find the answer to this second
challenge, we'll be much closer to solving the first.

Chip Bearden