Looking for Advice..

"Private" wrote
I agree there can be major differences between a Licence (or License)
and a Certificate or a Permit. AFAIK, Permits are not valid or
recognized outside of their country of issue. I do not fully
understand the difference in the USA between a License (correct
spelling in US usage?) and a Certificate. I would appreciate
enlightenment.

I post below a bit of dialog that I had a few years ago with one of the
editors of AVWEB, Russ Niles, who just happens to be from Canada.

I can understand the idiots at the local TV station constantly referring
to "pilot's licenses", but how did supposedly "aviation savvy" writers
for AVWEB mistake a certificate for a license in the lead article
pertaining to medical certificate fraud?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
A little journalistic license, Bob, as approved by the FAA.
Check it out under the Airman Registry subhead in the link provided
below.
It now appears that license is the preferred term and (certificate) is
bracketed
: ie less used... http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------
A quick call to the FAA confirms that there has been no change and that,
just like the newscasters, the webmaster has inserted his own slant on
the subject.
Since the page seems to be intended for the general public, the
webmaster probably felt that they would understand license better than
certificate.

However............from Wikipedia

A license (American English) or licence (Commonwealth English) is a
document or agreement giving permission to do something.

A certificate is an official document affirming some fact.
A certificate may also certify that a person has received specific
education or has passed a test.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is the following little bit of freedom granted to citizens of the
United States of America that makes the difference between license and
certificate.

United State Code TITLE 49 - TRANSPORTATION
Sec. 40103. Sovereignty and use of airspace
(2) A citizen of the United States has a public right of transit
through the navigable airspace.

No further granting of permission (license) is required, however, a
demonstration of training or ability (certification) may be required.

There is no such federal code granting a citizen the right to operate a
vehicle on public roads, or to practice medicine, therefore allowing the
government to require a license.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
My response from the FAA webmaster

Subject
Has the FAA really switched "pilot certificate" to "pilot license" as is
indi...

Discussion Thread
Response (FAA Expert) 07/22/2005 03:51 PM
It's a web error. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We are
in the process of restructuring our entire web site. I have initiated
action to correct this page to reflect "pilot certificate" and "mechanic
certificates."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would you mind if I wrote about this for Monday, Bob?

Write away Russ....just bear in mind that I'll be checking each and
every word. :-) :-)

What started out as just a gentle chide to the AVWEB editor turned out
to taking-on the FAA, something that I've done many times in the past.
I've been in this flying business for 50 years and have learned that the
FAA probably makes more mistakes than I do. Getting them to admit it as
easily as happened Friday came as quite a shock to me. My first call
was to the local (Tampa) FSDO and what a waste that was.
A simple yes or no question and after a five minute dissertation, I
still did not have a firm answer.

My name since leaving Naval Aviation and joining PanAm in 1967 has been
"Bob (It's a certificate not a license) Moore". The basic indoctrination
course at PanAm taught us a lot about aviation law and history. At 74
years of age, I am still an active Flight Instructor. I instructed for
three years in the Navy, probably ten years in the airline industry and
six years in the GA business and one thing that I learned early-on from
my students was to very carefully weigh each and every word that I
uttered for accuracy. This is much more important for those who would
commit words to paper, or now-a-days,to the internet. :-)

BTW, that little bit of Federal Code had its origins in the Air Commerce
Act of 1926. Just try discussing that with your friendly local FDSO
inspector! :-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bob Moore
ATP B-707 B-727 L-188
CFI ASEL-I
USN S-2F P-2V P-3B

"Robert Moore" wrote in message
5.247...
"Private" wrote
I agree there can be major differences between a Licence (or License)
and a Certificate or a Permit. AFAIK, Permits are not valid or
recognized outside of their country of issue. I do not fully
understand the difference in the USA between a License (correct
spelling in US usage?) and a Certificate. I would appreciate
enlightenment.

I post below a bit of dialog that I had a few years ago with one of the
editors of AVWEB, Russ Niles, who just happens to be from Canada.

I can understand the idiots at the local TV station constantly referring
to "pilot's licenses", but how did supposedly "aviation savvy" writers
for AVWEB mistake a certificate for a license in the lead article
pertaining to medical certificate fraud?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
A little journalistic license, Bob, as approved by the FAA.
Check it out under the Airman Registry subhead in the link provided
below.
It now appears that license is the preferred term and (certificate) is
bracketed
: ie less used... http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------
A quick call to the FAA confirms that there has been no change and that,
just like the newscasters, the webmaster has inserted his own slant on
the subject.
Since the page seems to be intended for the general public, the
webmaster probably felt that they would understand license better than
certificate.

However............from Wikipedia

A license (American English) or licence (Commonwealth English) is a
document or agreement giving permission to do something.

A certificate is an official document affirming some fact.
A certificate may also certify that a person has received specific
education or has passed a test.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is the following little bit of freedom granted to citizens of the
United States of America that makes the difference between license and
certificate.

United State Code TITLE 49 - TRANSPORTATION
Sec. 40103. Sovereignty and use of airspace
(2) A citizen of the United States has a public right of transit
through the navigable airspace.

No further granting of permission (license) is required, however, a
demonstration of training or ability (certification) may be required.

There is no such federal code granting a citizen the right to operate a
vehicle on public roads, or to practice medicine, therefore allowing the
government to require a license.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
My response from the FAA webmaster

Subject
Has the FAA really switched "pilot certificate" to "pilot license" as is
indi...

Discussion Thread
Response (FAA Expert) 07/22/2005 03:51 PM
It's a web error. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We are
in the process of restructuring our entire web site. I have initiated
action to correct this page to reflect "pilot certificate" and "mechanic
certificates."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would you mind if I wrote about this for Monday, Bob?

Write away Russ....just bear in mind that I'll be checking each and
every word. :-) :-)

What started out as just a gentle chide to the AVWEB editor turned out
to taking-on the FAA, something that I've done many times in the past.
I've been in this flying business for 50 years and have learned that the
FAA probably makes more mistakes than I do. Getting them to admit it as
easily as happened Friday came as quite a shock to me. My first call
was to the local (Tampa) FSDO and what a waste that was.
A simple yes or no question and after a five minute dissertation, I
still did not have a firm answer.

My name since leaving Naval Aviation and joining PanAm in 1967 has been
"Bob (It's a certificate not a license) Moore". The basic indoctrination
course at PanAm taught us a lot about aviation law and history. At 74
years of age, I am still an active Flight Instructor. I instructed for
three years in the Navy, probably ten years in the airline industry and
six years in the GA business and one thing that I learned early-on from
my students was to very carefully weigh each and every word that I
uttered for accuracy. This is much more important for those who would
commit words to paper, or now-a-days,to the internet. :-)

BTW, that little bit of Federal Code had its origins in the Air Commerce
Act of 1926. Just try discussing that with your friendly local FDSO
inspector! :-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bob Moore
ATP B-707 B-727 L-188
CFI ASEL-I
USN S-2F P-2V P-3B


Hello Bob,
Thank you for posting this, it is the best explanation that I have read and
certainly clarifies the issue for me.

ISTM that the USA has defined and granted 'rights' to its citizens that are
considered 'privileges' elsewhere. I suspect that many in the US government
wishes that this was not so, and seek to downgrade these and other 'rights'
to 'privileges' which it(they) can grant or withhold at will.

Happy landings,

On Jun 26, 1:51*pm, "Private" wrote:
"Robert Moore" wrote in message

5.250...
snip

I would be somewhat leery of any educational institution that calls a
pilot "certificate" a "license".

There are major differences between the two.

Bob Moore
ATP *CFI
PanAm (retired)

Hello Bob,
with respect,
The OP did not indicate their country of concern, in Canada at least (and I
suspect many others) the correct term (and spelling) is Licence.

PPL = Private pilot Licence (class = aeroplane or other)
CPL = Commercial Pilot Licence - aeroplane
ATPL = Airline Transport Pilot Licence - aeroplane
GPL = Glider Pilot Licence
BPL = Balloon Pilot Licence

Other Pilot Permits are available -
Student Pilot Permit
Gyroplane Pilot Permit
Ultra-light Aeroplane Pilot Permit
RPP = Recreational Pilot Permit - Aeroplane
Recreational Pilot Permit - Helicopter

Other available Licences cover -
Flight Engineers
Air Traffic Controllers
Aircraft Maintenance Engineers

In addition there are many additional ratings covering
Night
VFR OTT
Instrument
Second Officer
Passenger carrying (ultralight)
Flight Instructor
other Classes
Types
Floats

Link to CARs (Canadian Aviation Regulations)http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/re.../cars/menu.htm
Part IV - Personnel Licensing and Training subpart 1http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/regserv/affairs/cars/part4/subpart1...
has a list and training requirements for the various licences and permits..

I agree there can be major differences between a Licence (or License) and a
Certificate or a Permit. *AFAIK, Permits are not valid or recognized outside
of their country of issue. *I do not fully understand the difference in the
USA between a License (correct spelling in US usage?) *and a Certificate. *I
would appreciate enlightenment.

Happy landings,

It's been a very minor but aggravating issue with flight instructors
dealing with the FAA T crossers and i dotters for years here in the
states if that helps. A CFI is technically a Certificated Flight
Instructor, but there are a virtual ton of CFI's who refer to
themselves on almost every occasion as CERTIFIED Flight Instructors.
I did it myself for many years, even signed log books this way. Never
had a problem with it until discovering Usenet :-)
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote:
A CFI is technically a Certificated Flight
Instructor, but there are a virtual ton of CFI's who refer to
themselves on almost every occasion as CERTIFIED Flight Instructors.
I did it myself for many years, even signed log books this way. Never
had a problem with it until discovering Usenet :-)

While I suppose there may be some minor technical issues with log book
signing, I personally don't see any problems with CFIs using CFI to mean
"Certified Flight Instructor." It's not like the FAA has a trademark on the
acronym. Besides, here are several definitions of "certified,"
"certificated," and "certifiable" lifted straight from the web that show
how little difference there really is between them:

Certified:

Adj: "holding appropriate documentation and officially on record as
qualified to perform a specified function or practice a specified skill"

Adj: "endorsed authoritatively as having met certain requirements"

Certificated:

Adj: "furnished with or authorized by a certificate"

Certifiable:

Adj: "fit to be certified as insane (and treated accordingly)"

All seem equally applicable to CFIs!
;-)

On Jun 26, 7:54*pm, Jim Logajan wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote:
A CFI is technically a Certificated Flight
Instructor, but there are a virtual ton of CFI's who refer to
themselves on almost every occasion as CERTIFIED Flight Instructors.
I did it myself for many years, even signed log books this way. Never
had a problem with it until discovering Usenet :-)

While I suppose there may be some minor technical issues with log book
signing, I personally don't see any problems with CFIs using CFI to mean
"Certified Flight Instructor." It's not like the FAA has a trademark on the
acronym. Besides, here are several definitions of "certified,"
"certificated," and "certifiable" lifted straight from the web that show
how little difference there really is between them:

Certified:

Adj: "holding appropriate documentation and officially on record as
qualified to perform a specified function or practice a specified skill"

Adj: "endorsed authoritatively as having met certain requirements"

Certificated:

Adj: "furnished with or authorized by a certificate"

Certifiable:

Adj: "fit to be certified as insane (and treated accordingly)"

All seem equally applicable to CFIs!
;-)

Based on these definitions, and after a quick consultation with my
wife, I think I can state flatly that I am FULLY qualified as a
certifiable flight instructor.
:-)

DH

In article
,
Dudley Henriques wrote:

On Jun 26, 7:54*pm, Jim Logajan wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote:
A CFI is technically a Certificated Flight
Instructor, but there are a virtual ton of CFI's who refer to
themselves on almost every occasion as CERTIFIED Flight Instructors.
I did it myself for many years, even signed log books this way. Never
had a problem with it until discovering Usenet :-)

While I suppose there may be some minor technical issues with log book
signing, I personally don't see any problems with CFIs using CFI to mean
"Certified Flight Instructor." It's not like the FAA has a trademark on the
acronym. Besides, here are several definitions of "certified,"
"certificated," and "certifiable" lifted straight from the web that show
how little difference there really is between them:

Certified:

Adj: "holding appropriate documentation and officially on record as
qualified to perform a specified function or practice a specified skill"

Adj: "endorsed authoritatively as having met certain requirements"

Certificated:

Adj: "furnished with or authorized by a certificate"

Certifiable:

Adj: "fit to be certified as insane (and treated accordingly)"

All seem equally applicable to CFIs!
;-)

Based on these definitions, and after a quick consultation with my
wife, I think I can state flatly that I am FULLY qualified as a
certifiable flight instructor.
:-)

DH

Is she hinting that you're getting behind on the mowing?

On Jun 26, 8:26*pm, Steve Hix
wrote:
In article
,
*Dudley Henriques wrote:



On Jun 26, 7:54*pm, Jim Logajan wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote:
A CFI is technically a Certificated Flight
Instructor, but there are a virtual ton of CFI's who refer to
themselves on almost every occasion as CERTIFIED Flight Instructors..
I did it myself for many years, even signed log books this way. Never
had a problem with it until discovering Usenet :-)

While I suppose there may be some minor technical issues with log book
signing, I personally don't see any problems with CFIs using CFI to mean
"Certified Flight Instructor." It's not like the FAA has a trademark on the
acronym. Besides, here are several definitions of "certified,"
"certificated," and "certifiable" lifted straight from the web that show
how little difference there really is between them:

Certified:

Adj: "holding appropriate documentation and officially on record as
qualified to perform a specified function or practice a specified skill"

Adj: "endorsed authoritatively as having met certain requirements"

Certificated:

Adj: "furnished with or authorized by a certificate"

Certifiable:

Adj: "fit to be certified as insane (and treated accordingly)"

All seem equally applicable to CFIs!
;-)

Based on these definitions, and after a quick consultation with my
wife, I think I can state flatly that I am FULLY qualified as a
certifiable flight instructor.
:-)

DH

Is she hinting that you're getting behind on the mowing?

That one comes more as a Ninja attack than a "hint" :-))
-DH

Brian.. the $27K estimate is for Pvt, Commercial and Instrument.. plus
academics for an AS Degree.

"Brian Whatcott" wrote in message
...
majortom546 wrote:
I just graduated from high school and my dream job is to become a pilot.
I have wanted to be a pilot since a very young age. I plan on attending
my local community college this fall. They offer an aviation science
program that is mainly a transfer program where you go for 2 years then
transfer to a 4-year school for the other two. The course description
says:

The Associate in Science (A.S.) degree is awarded upon completion of
requirements for this program.

* Student will satisfy all requirements to earn a Private Pilot
License.
* Student will satisfy all requirements to earn an Instrument Rating.
* Student will satisfy all requirements to earn a Commercial Pilot
License.

The total cost of the program is $27,000. What schools could I transfer
to after this? And do you guys think its worth it or should I persue a
degree in something else? What is the job outlook like? Thanks.
*
*
*
It has been done before - but this is possibly the toughest, unlikeliest
way to an airline job. Getting a four year degree. YES!
Getting a pilot slot in the Navy or AirForce? YES?

But if an hour of flight costs $100 and it will take you 45 hours (at
least) then that's a $5000 budget, not $27 grand

Brian W

Ah yes, of course. And after a look at a dollar index graph at a
commodities seminar this week, it might be good to spend those bucks
while they are still worth more than six bits??

Brian W


BT wrote:
Brian.. the $27K estimate is for Pvt, Commercial and Instrument.. plus
academics for an AS Degree.

"Brian Whatcott" wrote in message
...
majortom546 wrote:
I just graduated from high school and my dream job is to become a pilot.
I have wanted to be a pilot since a very young age. I plan on attending
my local community college this fall. They offer an aviation science
program that is mainly a transfer program where you go for 2 years then
transfer to a 4-year school for the other two. The course description
says:

The Associate in Science (A.S.) degree is awarded upon completion of
requirements for this program.

* Student will satisfy all requirements to earn a Private Pilot
License.
* Student will satisfy all requirements to earn an Instrument Rating.
* Student will satisfy all requirements to earn a Commercial Pilot
License.

The total cost of the program is $27,000. What schools could I transfer
to after this? And do you guys think its worth it or should I persue a
degree in something else? What is the job outlook like? Thanks.
*
*
*
It has been done before - but this is possibly the toughest, unlikeliest
way to an airline job. Getting a four year degree. YES!
Getting a pilot slot in the Navy or AirForce? YES?

But if an hour of flight costs $100 and it will take you 45 hours (at
least) then that's a $5000 budget, not $27 grand

Brian W

Ricky wrote:
On Jun 25, 9:38 pm, majortom546
wrote:
I just graduated from high school and my dream job is to become a pilot.
The total cost of the program is $27,000....
majortom546

Please do not listen only to the doom stories about salary, hours,
expense, and the liberal NYT article. Never trust or put much weight
on the media in making life-changing decions, especially about a
career.

Piloting careers are diverse and the job market fluctuates greatly. I
am not a career pilot (I am a career A&P who flys for fun at the
moment) but my nephew's story paints a different picture than the doom
& gloom stories given to you here so far.
He went into some debt but had wealthy parents to help him through
Baylor's aviation program, graduated with a bachelor's and a CFII,
Multi, went straight to the Dallas area and stepped into a $25,000/
year CFI job with very reasonable hours and benefits. A few months
later he hired on at Flight Safety as a co-pilot in a specific
business jet simulator and was paid over $30,000 for this. A business
jet captain, coming to train in the simulator liked my nephew and
said; "you should come work for us." So he went from Flight Safety to
co-pilot in a Sabreliner for a major corporation and his salary jumped
significantly to, I think, near $40,000. All this happened in less
than 2 years after graduating from a 4 year university so don't let
anyone tell you that you can't get a good flying job. If you want
something bad enough, and are willing to do whatever it takes to get
it, it can be your's.
I could tell you at least 5 more very recent success stories of pilots
just out of school getting very respectable careers flying. The
airlines are NOT all there is. There are corporations, 1000s of them
with small business jets. Helicopter jobs are hot, I understand, right
now (and usually are). You can fly and earn a living, don't listen to
those who say "don't!"
Many people really enjoy instructing as a career and make well over
$50,000 within a few years at the right school/insitution. My plan is
to get my CFII & instruct as a "side job" supplementing my A&P work or
to find a place that needs check or test pilots for planes worked on.
If you really want to fly and it's been your dream since you were
little, don't let anything or anyone stop you. You will never be
satisfied or happy until you're living your dream, anyway.

Ricky


There's a useful, contrasting viewpoint.
But (can't I resist being negative?) a 4 year degree from Baylor and
a CFII ticket is not a $27 grand proposition. $80? $100? $127 grand?
That's why it is very, very helpful to have well-heeled parents in
this situation.
I could mention the starry eyed young instructors living hand to mouth
in a tatty travel trailer, building hours towards an ATP.

Still, I like the idea of grabbing for the ring and living the dream.

Brian W