Parowan Fatal Crash

There has been some insightful, thoughtful, and (I hope)
thought-provoking input ahead of this post & I doubt I can contribute
much more, beyond agreeing with it all and trying to reinforce it from
my personal perspective.

As the years have passed, one by one most of my long-held beliefs about
certain aspects of aviation have been proven wrong by reality, e.g.:
- it IS possible to spin in a landing-flap-only-equipped sailplane while
flying a pattern with full flaps;
- people DO routinely fall asleep at the switch;
- "it" CAN happen to me.

The ship I've flown since 1981 is docility defined in every flight
regime which I've explored, and I have difficulty imagining one of
similar airfoil & configuration being inadvertently spun...yet it has
been done (not by me), and, into the ground, with full flaps deployed
(the pilot - who survived - was overshooting his off-airport field).

I've never spun mine, have no intention of ever spinning it
(intentionally or unintentionally), but believe in my soul that it
*might* be possible that I *could* inadvertently spin it...and try
really hard to "not do it!" So far, it's worked.

I believe and think this way for a number of reasons: 1) accident
reports tell me others (including paid professionals) too-often 'do the
impossibly unlikely;' 2) perfection's NOT an option; and 3) I hope that
by so believing I'm doing everything I can within myself to *avoid*
doing those things I never - EVER! - want to do in a glider. You're
darned right there's a paradox here, but until someone comes up with an
inoculation against human forgetfulness, momentary inattention during
critical flight regimes, varying/diminishing skills, etc. I believe it's
the best I can do within my own brain.

I knew neither of our recently departed soul brothers, but mourn their
passing and circumstances, and grieve for their families and friends.

Respectfully and Sorrowfully,
Bob W.

On Jul 1, 5:32*pm, bildan wrote:

What happens next is crucial. *If the pilot does nothing, the glider
is likely to transition into a spiral dive. *If the pilot then applies
spin recovery control inputs the spiral dive will become much worse.
Some of the scariest rides I've had is with a pilot using "anti-spin"
control inputs while in a spiral dive.

I'm a little confused by this. The normal recovery from a spiral dive
is to roll the wings level and then apply smooth aft stick pressure to
level flight. What is it about the "anti-spin" control inputs that
makes the spiral dive worse? Do you mean something like full rudder
in the anti-turn direction and full forward stick?

TA

On Jul 1, 6:49*pm, Frank wrote:
On Jul 1, 5:32*pm, bildan wrote:

What happens next is crucial. *If the pilot does nothing, the glider
is likely to transition into a spiral dive. *If the pilot then applies
spin recovery control inputs the spiral dive will become much worse.
Some of the scariest rides I've had is with a pilot using "anti-spin"
control inputs while in a spiral dive.

I'm a little confused by this. *The normal recovery from a spiral dive
is to roll the wings level and then apply smooth aft stick pressure to
level flight. *What is it about the "anti-spin" control inputs that
makes the spiral dive worse? *Do you mean something like full rudder
in the anti-turn direction and full forward stick?

TA

You just answered your own question. If in an early spiral dive down
elevetor is going to accelerate the spiral dive. If going very fast a
full rudder deflection is not a good thing. And you have not directly
helped do what you really need to do which is roll off aileron so you
can then get the airspeed off. So now you are in a very steep spiral
dive maybe yawed sideways and things are winding up fast. If lack of
situational awareness led to an inital wrong control input for
recovery the confusion about what is then going on may be too much.

The g-forces on a pilot in a spiral dive are not pretty to think
about. In a ship like mine (ASH-26E) with a nice big bathtub style
cockpit getting out would be very difficult. I am not an instructor
but one thing I noticed when spinning two seaters with other pilots
(and this was just a DG-1000, which is pretty benign) was that it was
pretty common not to recognize the transition to a spiral dive. This
is the main reason I think proper spin training with an instructor is
a good idea. Obviously the goal is to avoid entry at all, but I worry
what happens once in a spin if a pilot is not comfortable with
recovery. Then think about this with a slippery high performance
glider loaded up with water. And. yes I know the horrible irony is
that people will die in spin training accidents.

Anyhow this is is all gerneal comments and who knows if relevent in
any way to the two recent accidents.

Deep sympathy to the families of the two pilots who died in these
accidents.

A sobering time for us all to think about how we fly and out own
safety.

Darryl

On Jul 1, 10:41*am, Ramy wrote:
On Jul 1, 10:21*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:

On Jul 1, 10:55*am, ContestID67 wrote:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12717073

There've been some conflicting reports. *This has a bit more detailhttp://www.thespectrum.com/article/20090701/NEWS01/907010314/Glider+a...

We are having a horrible year. 2fatalcrashes in 2 US regional
contests one day after the other. Both sounds like the glider suddenly
plummeted to the ground. Very depressing. I hope we will find out one
day why very experienced pilots suddenly loose control and hit the
ground.

Ramy

Where was the other one? I'm out here at Cedar City at a Navion
Convention and visted Parowan Monday when they were landing. Great to
see, but sad news about the crash.

On Jul 1, 2:32*pm, bildan wrote:
Any attempt to turn will trip an asymmetric stall which will develop
into a spin in less than a second. * *Just before the glider spins,
everything "looks" normal. *(Except, of course, for the ridiculously
low airspeed, sloppy controls, absence of wind noise etc...) *Several
high time glider pilots doing a BFR with me didn't see this one coming
and were visibly shaken by their 'inadvertent spin'.

What happens next is crucial. *If the pilot does nothing, the glider
is likely to transition into a spiral dive. *
I do not understand this last sentence. What converts a spin into a
spiral dive? What is the aerdynamic/physics here?
Heinz

On Jul 1, 10:15*pm, Patty Haley wrote:
On Jul 1, 10:41*am, Ramy wrote:

On Jul 1, 10:21*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:

On Jul 1, 10:55*am, ContestID67 wrote:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12717073

There've been some conflicting reports. *This has a bit more detailhttp://www.thespectrum.com/article/20090701/NEWS01/907010314/Glider+a...

We are having a horrible year. 2fatalcrashes in 2 US regional
contests one day after the other. Both sounds like the glider suddenly
plummeted to the ground. Very depressing. I hope we will find out one
day why very experienced pilots suddenly loose control and hit the
ground.

Ramy

Where was the other one? I'm out here at Cedar City at a Navion
Convention and visted Parowan Monday when they were landing. Great to
see, but sad news about the crash.

On course outside of Ephrata, near Soap Lake.

Both were on Monday.

On Jul 1, 9:54*pm, Heinz wrote:
On Jul 1, 2:32*pm, bildan wrote: Any attempt to turn will trip an asymmetric stall which will develop
into a spin in less than a second. * *Just before the glider spins,
everything "looks" normal. *(Except, of course, for the ridiculously
low airspeed, sloppy controls, absence of wind noise etc...) *Several
high time glider pilots doing a BFR with me didn't see this one coming
and were visibly shaken by their 'inadvertent spin'.

What happens next is crucial. *If the pilot does nothing, the glider
is likely to transition into a spiral dive. *

I do not understand this last sentence. What converts a spin into a
spiral dive? What is the aerdynamic/physics here?
Heinz

Am I misunderstanding the question? Once the pilot releases back
pressure or applies forward stick, or if pilot reduced spin direction
rudder or applies opposite rudder (will help slow rotation rate and
can cause nose to drop and stall to break) or applies inside aileron
(opposite effect of a flat spin)... all obvious things that can cause
the stall to break and then you have the outer wing flying faster,
nose pointed at ground ...

Undoubtedly there are second order things where a glider will come out
of a spin by itself (we've all seen this right?) after a few rotations
with constant control positions as the nose slowly drops, if the
glider is never really fully stalled (esp. with forward CG) or angular
momentum related effects. But I'll expect in most cases the cause is
just simply the pilot intentionally or unintentionally releasing back
pressure.

Darryl

How about some sympathy for the families...

GL


At 05:43 02 July 2009, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jul 1, 9:54=A0pm, Heinz wrote:
On Jul 1, 2:32=A0pm, bildan wrote: Any attempt to t=
urn will trip an asymmetric stall which will develop
into a spin in less than a second. =A0 =A0Just before the glider
spins,
everything "looks" normal. =A0(Except, of course, for the
ridiculously
low airspeed, sloppy controls, absence of wind noise etc...)
=A0Several
high time glider pilots doing a BFR with me didn't see this one
coming
and were visibly shaken by their 'inadvertent spin'.

What happens next is crucial. =A0If the pilot does nothing, the
glider
is likely to transition into a spiral dive. =A0

I do not understand this last sentence. What converts a spin into a
spiral dive? What is the aerdynamic/physics here?
Heinz

Am I misunderstanding the question? Once the pilot releases back
pressure or applies forward stick, or if pilot reduced spin direction
rudder or applies opposite rudder (will help slow rotation rate and
can cause nose to drop and stall to break) or applies inside aileron
(opposite effect of a flat spin)... all obvious things that can cause
the stall to break and then you have the outer wing flying faster,
nose pointed at ground ...

Undoubtedly there are second order things where a glider will come out
of a spin by itself (we've all seen this right?) after a few rotations
with constant control positions as the nose slowly drops, if the
glider is never really fully stalled (esp. with forward CG) or angular
momentum related effects. But I'll expect in most cases the cause is
just simply the pilot intentionally or unintentionally releasing back
pressure.

Darryl

Bill,

Do you mean you don't teach the difference between spins and spiral dives
in the States?! That's a pre-solo exercise in the UK. We also teach all
the possible spin entries, not all of which are nose high with a bootful
of rudder, and more importantly how to avoid the situations where they can
occur.

I agree that many gliders will spiral out of an initial spin entry, and
that the recovery actions are quite different, namely.

Spin:

1) Centralise the ailerons
2) Apply full outspin rudder
3) Move the stick steadily forward until the spin stops
4) Centralise the rudder and ease out of the dive.

Spiral Dive,

1) Keep the stick fairly well back and use the controls normally to reduce
the angle of bank.

Spins and spiral dives look and feel quite different. In particular the
speed and g will continue to increase in a spiral dive, whereas they
don't in a spin.

Derek Copeland


At 21:32 01 July 2009, bildan wrote:

On Jul 2, 6:45*am, Gregg Leslie wrote:
How about some sympathy for the families...

GL

Yes, thank you Gregg.

For the rest of you guys... c'mon. You want to discuss elementary
spin recovery technique, fine. Start your own thread. Please don't
do it in the context of a couple of tragic accidents.

We don't know what happened. I do know that the one of these guys I
knew personally had a lot more flight experience in all sorts of
aircraft, from hang gliders to turbo-twins than most of the noisy
pundits here. If he failed to apply appropriate corrective actions, I
suspect it is most likely because he was incapacitated. Lack of
knowledge or skill wasn't the problem.

I'm with Ramy, these accidents are disturbing.

-Evan Ludeman / T8