Airplane Ownership

"Richard Hertz" wrote in message
news
My VOR receivers are functional and so is my Garmin 295. I could have
spent
a bunch of money for an MFD and a GPS (ifr certified) and an AP, but that
was waaay too much for the "extra" value that I am getting.

It is nice to see pictures and things in the airplane, but not at that
price.

Have to agree that the cost/benefit ratio can be pretty lopsided. But I do
celebrate the fact that glass cockpits are available at all in SEL a/c. And
at a reasonable yet high price for new a/c.

At the same time, you couldn't pry my panel mounted ifr certified GPS unit
out of my hands very easily. A very high value item for me.

(I also have seen too many people become way too dependent on the
pretty moving map that they have no idea what to do if it is not there. )

Oh poppycock...

Sometimes I think we all just reflexively feel that use of the newest
technology erodes older, somehow more valuable skills. Radio navigation
eroding our pilotage skills, ADFs and VOR eroding LF range skills (whatever
they were), GPS eroding VOR skills, MFDs eroding our eyesight...

I flew 100 to 300 mile glider cross countries for 5+ years exclusively by
pilotage. No radio navigation, no dead reckoning, often over unfamiliar
terrain and at low altitudes. It was challenging, I got very good at it,
and it all disappeared when the first GPS units hit the scene. Didn't miss
it for a second and the sport became even more fun. There's nothing noble
about not using the best technology when operating a machine... and I fly a
tailwheel.

I question how many pilots with an electrical system actually have any
appreciable pilotage skills. Or how many actually practice their dead
reckoning skills. And why is navigating by VOR somehow more meaningful than
by GPS?

I think the real skill gap lies in the fact that too many pilots fly
equipment that they have not fully trained on or are proficient with. Using
a panel mount GPS unit effectively requires more skill, not less.
..
"SJC Flying Club"
Your point is well taken, though. Moving map GPS and MFDs can be
addictive
and cause one to lose some pilotage and simple radio navigation skills.

It is nice to see pictures and things in the airplane, but not at that
price. (I also have seen too many people become way too dependent on
the
pretty moving map that they have no idea what to do if it is not
here. )

I bought a plane with 13 hrs and 1 hr solo. My wife already had a Private
certificate at the time.

I wouldn't recommend it:
- The learning curve is steep.
- It will take more hours to get your license - fixing airplane problems -
flight checks.
- Mechanic shops will take all your money - especially if you are new to the
business.
- It won't be cheaper than renting.
- insurance is higher for student pilots.

My plane had a good engine and airframe. So far I've upgraded radios twice,
generator to Alternator, fuses to breakers,...

I was an hour drive from any rentals and I wanted to fly, so I paid the
extra cost.

Mitch



"Shirley" wrote in message
...
Anyone here buy their own airplane to do their training in before being
licensed? I am a glider pilot transitioning to power. Any
suggestions/recommendations, advice, cautions? Thanks in advance.

I have to second Mitch's recommendations (or rather, lack thereof). Your
first year of ownership can be pretty painful. Even if you don't have any
squawks (unlikely), you'll need nerves of steel to resist fixing things that
the previous owner didn't bother with. That being said, after the first
year or two things usually settle down and, as long as you fly a respectible
number of hours, the costs start to make more sense. However, as Mitch
says, it's very difficult to make it cheaper than renting.

I bought my plane just before starting my instrument rating. I flew enough
hours to make it competitive with renting, but I had a painful annual (not
at all unusual for your first year) and a few bits of random maintenance
which put me over the top. I had to cancel lessons at least two times due
to maintenance: one was a failed tach, the other was an alternator. I also
lost about two weeks upgrading the panel.

My advice, wait 'til you finish your PP-ASEL, decide what kind of flying you
think you'll be doing over the next five years, then choose an airplane
which fits that mission (or keep on renting).

best of luck,
mark

"Mitch" wrote in message
news:x5a5c.23277$m4.16123@okepread03...
I bought a plane with 13 hrs and 1 hr solo. My wife already had a Private
certificate at the time.

I wouldn't recommend it:
- The learning curve is steep.
- It will take more hours to get your license - fixing airplane problems -
flight checks.
- Mechanic shops will take all your money - especially if you are new to
the
business.
- It won't be cheaper than renting.
- insurance is higher for student pilots.

My plane had a good engine and airframe. So far I've upgraded radios
twice,
generator to Alternator, fuses to breakers,...

I was an hour drive from any rentals and I wanted to fly, so I paid the
extra cost.

Mitch



"Shirley" wrote in message
...
Anyone here buy their own airplane to do their training in before being
licensed? I am a glider pilot transitioning to power. Any
suggestions/recommendations, advice, cautions? Thanks in advance.

Kyler Laird wrote in message ...
(Captain Wubba) writes:

Since the original poster is just finishing their private license, for
the next 2 or 3 years (at least) they will be working on their
instrument ticket, their Commercial ticket...stuff that requires
hours,

How do you know? *I* certainly didn't. Within six months of getting
my Private, I was touring the country with my family in my Aztec. Had
I been limited to putting in hours in some little plane, there's a
good chance I would have given up flying (again). That would have been
a lousy investment.

Well, that is great for you. Of the dozens and dozens of pilots I know
that makes *one* who has done this. The other 95% have spent their
time flyign 150s and 172 and Cherokees, doing some XC flying, but
often working on their IFR tickets and trying to develop their flying
skills. I recommended a 4 seater like a 172 or a Musketeer. One they
can fly *immediately* (Want to guess what it would cost to get a new
private pilot insured in a Bone or an Aztec?) and use for reasonably
useful trips *and* training. Buying a 172 is almost *never* a 'lousy
investment'. You might lose a small amount when you sell it (but
probably not) but you will certainly recoup that amount in decreased
cost if you do a good prebuy on it and fly it a lot.


I think it's silly to pretend that all pilots are going to be
motivated by the desire to "get hours."

I think it is sillier to assume that your personal experience is more
applicable than that of the 'other' 95% of the new pilot population.
There is *no* chance today that a new private pilot could get insured
in an Aztec (Heck, I'm an instructor with a Multi Commercial, 600
hours total time, and an instrument ticket and *I* Can't get
reasonably priced insurance in a twin). There are reasons planes like
172s make good 'starter' planes. For the first year after getting yout
private ticket, even if you *aren't* looking to build hours per se,
you *are* looking to develop your skills and become a more proficient
pilot.

The original poster asked a simple question. I responded in a way that
took into account the actions of the vast majority of new pilots and
answered accordingly.

Cheers,

Cap



--kyler

(Captain Wubba) writes:

One they
can fly *immediately* (Want to guess what it would cost to get a new
private pilot insured in a Bone or an Aztec?)

Nope. Are you suggesting that such insurance is mandatory? Do we
need to pull Mike R. into the discussion?

I think it's silly to pretend that all pilots are going to be
motivated by the desire to "get hours."

I think it is sillier to assume that your personal experience is more
applicable than that of the 'other' 95% of the new pilot population.

Fortunately I didn't do that. I only suggested examining long-term
goals and motivations. The sweeping pronouncments were yours.

There is *no* chance today that a new private pilot could get insured
in an Aztec

I was told it's cyclical. Look for it to come around again.

The original poster asked a simple question. I responded in a way that
took into account the actions of the vast majority of new pilots and
answered accordingly.

I realize that there are a lot of people who post to rec.aviation.*
who are perfectly happy saying that something is always true despite
counterexamples. I'm not one of them.

Your "disagreement" with my experience doesn't strike me as useful.

--kyler

Dat's right! Don't need no stinking insurance!

Mike
MU-2

"Kyler Laird" wrote in message
...
(Captain Wubba) writes:

One they
can fly *immediately* (Want to guess what it would cost to get a new
private pilot insured in a Bone or an Aztec?)

Nope. Are you suggesting that such insurance is mandatory? Do we
need to pull Mike R. into the discussion?

I think it's silly to pretend that all pilots are going to be
motivated by the desire to "get hours."

I think it is sillier to assume that your personal experience is more
applicable than that of the 'other' 95% of the new pilot population.

Fortunately I didn't do that. I only suggested examining long-term
goals and motivations. The sweeping pronouncments were yours.

There is *no* chance today that a new private pilot could get insured
in an Aztec

I was told it's cyclical. Look for it to come around again.

The original poster asked a simple question. I responded in a way that
took into account the actions of the vast majority of new pilots and
answered accordingly.

I realize that there are a lot of people who post to rec.aviation.*
who are perfectly happy saying that something is always true despite
counterexamples. I'm not one of them.

Your "disagreement" with my experience doesn't strike me as useful.

--kyler

I think it's silly to pretend that all pilots are going
to be motivated by the desire to "get hours."

I think it is sillier to assume that your personal
experience is more applicable than that of the
'other' 95% of the new pilot population.

Gentlemen, please ... I appreciate all the input, regardless of which point of
view you are contributing.

I don't have huge aspirations regarding airplanes; then again, it wasn't that
long ago that I thought getting a private pilot ticket was a huge aspiration
(still do, actually)! Right now, I don't plan to go on long, cross-country
trips and don't plan on taking two or three passengers or a lot of baggage. Not
necessarily looking for an airplane I would keep forever, but would keep it as
long as it suits my needs, is fun to fly (subjective opinion, I realize), and
isn't a bottomless money pitt.

I don't expect it to be "cheaper than renting", but I would gladly pay the
difference for being in charge of arranging for maintenance myself vs. having
to look for another airplane to rent until some school is good and ready to
have something fixed. An added bonus would be not having to arrange my schedule
based on when the aircraft is available to me.

As for insurance, I have already gotten quotes, so I know it is do-able. Just
wondered what advice/tips people who'd gone this route would give, in
retrospect.

Kyler Laird wrote in message ...
(Captain Wubba) writes:

One they
can fly *immediately* (Want to guess what it would cost to get a new
private pilot insured in a Bone or an Aztec?)

Nope. Are you suggesting that such insurance is mandatory? Do we
need to pull Mike R. into the discussion?

Absolutely not. I'm sure most of the folks asking questions here have
$100,000 in cash lying around to purchase an Aztec so that they don't
need a loan (for which insurance *is* generally mandatory). And I'm
sure those people have *no* other assets that they might wish to try
to protect via insurance. Probably applies to 3/4 of all pilots,
right?


I think it's silly to pretend that all pilots are going to be
motivated by the desire to "get hours."

I think it is sillier to assume that your personal experience is more
applicable than that of the 'other' 95% of the new pilot population.

Fortunately I didn't do that. I only suggested examining long-term
goals and motivations. The sweeping pronouncments were yours.

Really? What were they? I extrapolated what seems to be the course for
the vast majority of new pilots and suggested a reasonable answer to
the poster based on that. As I said in the first post I made, the best
advice I got was to look at a plane purchase as one for the next 5
years, not the next 30. Still the best advice I received.


There is *no* chance today that a new private pilot could get insured
in an Aztec

I was told it's cyclical. Look for it to come around again.

Indeed. I fully expect that in a year or two a 60-hour Private Pilot
can get some top-flight Citation Insurance for $30 a year. Any day
now.


The original poster asked a simple question. I responded in a way that
took into account the actions of the vast majority of new pilots and
answered accordingly.

I realize that there are a lot of people who post to rec.aviation.*
who are perfectly happy saying that something is always true despite
counterexamples. I'm not one of them.

You have no idea how happy I am for you.

But when did I ever say or imply such a thing myself?


Your "disagreement" with my experience doesn't strike me as useful.

Well, maybe since I was responding to the original poster who asked a
reasonable question demaning a reasonable answer, perhaps that is a
good thing, given your response. Perhaps it isn't useful to you.
Hopefully it was to him.


--kyler

Cap

(Captain Wubba) writes:

One they
can fly *immediately* (Want to guess what it would cost to get a new
private pilot insured in a Bone or an Aztec?)

Nope. Are you suggesting that such insurance is mandatory? Do we
need to pull Mike R. into the discussion?

Absolutely not. I'm sure most of the folks asking questions here have
$100,000 in cash lying around to purchase an Aztec so that they don't
need a loan (for which insurance *is* generally mandatory).

Again you're off on "most" (even though a specific person was asking
for help originally). Why not just say "Everyone should get a C-172"
and be done with your sage advice?

And I'm
sure those people have *no* other assets that they might wish to try
to protect via insurance. Probably applies to 3/4 of all pilots,
right?

Doesn't apply to me. Don't care.

Fortunately I didn't do that. I only suggested examining long-term
goals and motivations. The sweeping pronouncments were yours.

Really? What were they?

Oh! You didn't read the part that I quoted in my response. That
does explain some of the confusion.

Here it is again.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...&output=gplain

Since the original poster is just finishing their private license, for
the next 2 or 3 years (at least) they will be working on their
instrument ticket, their Commercial ticket...stuff that requires
hours,

There is *no* chance today that a new private pilot could get insured
in an Aztec

I was told it's cyclical. Look for it to come around again.

Indeed. I fully expect that in a year or two a 60-hour Private Pilot
can get some top-flight Citation Insurance for $30 a year. Any day
now.

Are you implying that it's not cyclical or are you again discounting my
experience of getting insurance for an Aztec as a new Private Pilot?

Your "disagreement" with my experience doesn't strike me as useful.

Well, maybe since I was responding to the original poster who asked a
reasonable question demaning a reasonable answer, perhaps that is a
good thing, given your response. Perhaps it isn't useful to you.
Hopefully it was to him.

Maybe. Maybe not. Either way, it's based on false assumptions.

--kyler