No SID in clearance, fly it anyway?

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
. ..

"Chip Jones" wrote in message
k.net...

Or "VHF" towers, or "VHS" towers...all of which came up in aviation
media
reports about the hearings and debates.

Or the slightly less popular beta towers.


LOL. If only that damn union would get out of the way, we could outsource
for some 8-track capability.

Chip, ZTL

Snowbird wrote:
If they issue vectors they are
at the direction of an associated approach control which has to
meet some criteria I don't know about (having to do with how
quickly they can pick up departures on radar).

This rule applies to all radar facilities. If you want to give vectors
with the takeoff clearance then you have to be able to see departures
within a half mile of the end of the runway. Never a problem when the
radar is on the field, maybe a problem when the radar is across town.



However, I don't know how NewPS's definition that a heading issued
by a VFR tower is really always a vector actually plays out IRL.

If a VFR tower gives a heading to a departing IFR aircraft that is
always a vector. It's just that it either originated with the approach
control facility when the tower requested the IFR release or if the
tower has a letter of agreement with the approach control to
automatically release IFR departures they may have a pie to relaese
those departures into.


So I dunno -- either there are an awful lot of controllers at
VFR towers who have trouble with the word "suggest"

Nope.


, or there
are some subtleties to the distinction between heading and
vector.

Nope.

Hey, we're getting a new tower built here, I think it's a DVD.

Chip Jones wrote:

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
. ..

"Chip Jones" wrote in message

k.net...

Or "VHF" towers, or "VHS" towers...all of which came up in aviation

media

reports about the hearings and debates.

Or the slightly less popular beta towers.



LOL. If only that damn union would get out of the way, we could outsource
for some 8-track capability.

Chip, ZTL

Newps wrote:

wrote:


Newps wrote:


wrote:


And, at a mountain airport, until you reach MVA on departure, even the
radar controller and you are in a obstacle-clearance haze.

Mountain airport, non mountain airport it doesn't matter. There is no haze.


Well, how do you determine where the obstacles are below the MVA. Dig out a
sectional chart?

It's all laid out for the controller. Here at BIL we have some TV
antennas that are less than 3 miles from the airport, therefore we have
a vector SID. Everybody gets the SID, which tells you to climb at a
higher than normal rate until leaving a certain altitude. I issue you
that and I get to vector you where ever I want. Every other airport
with obstacles will have a similar procedure, does not matter if you are
in the mountains or not. If the airport is really closed in with
mountains the procedure just becomes more restrictive.

That higher-than-standard climb graident applies to three runways, and only for
about 1,000 feet. Once I reach 4,500 (onl about 1,000 agl) presumably I can climb
at only 200 feet per mile after that. Are you required to keep me within the MVA
sector that overlies the airport until I achieve the altitude of a higher MVA
sector into which you plan to take me?

"Newps" wrote in message
news:kjPpb.76419$275.204991@attbi_s53...
Hey, we're getting a new tower built here, I think it's a DVD.

Lemme guess; it's got 60 slots in it, right?



Chip Jones wrote:
LOL. If only that damn union would get out of the way, we could
outsource
for some 8-track capability.

Newps wrote:

wrote:


Newps wrote:


Greg Esres wrote:


Tower guys don't give headings, they give vectors

Nonsense. Vectors require radar contact, and lots of towers aren't
associated at all with any radar facility.

Vectors do not require radar contact when issued with your takeoff
clearance. There are rules as to how soon after you takeoff that you
must be seen on the radar, otherwise the controller cannot vector you.
The tower itself does not have to have radar to give you a vector. If
the approach control can see aircraft within a half a mile after takeoff
they may have the tower give you a vector.


That is a contradiction in terms. If the tower controller can't see you on
radar he cannot vector you. He can only assign a heading.

If there is no radar in the tower the approach control will assign the
vector. If you get a heading in your takeoff clearance it is a vector.
Period.

That happened to me personally at KMRY a few years ago, taking off to the east
towards the rapidly rising mountains. I had filed the MRY 3 vector SID, which
required a turn to a heading of 315, or so, to fly away from the terrain and over
the ocean.

I was assigned the heading by the tower just after takeoff. I replied, "Is this
for vectors?" Silence. I then said, "I cannot achieve a climb gradient to climb
straight out. Silence. I then said, "I am turning left to a heading of 315 to
follow my filed departure." Then, there were some "ahhs and errrs" and I was
handed off to departure control.

I later learned that the TRACON cannot see you on an east departure until you're
about 1,100 feet, agl, due to the fact the antenna is located several miles away
so it can serve KSNS as well.

I was well aware that the Runway 10 non-radar SID had a climb gradient of 400
feet per mile for almost 4500 feet.

Newps wrote:

Greg Esres wrote:

That's not always the case. And to make matters worse, the pilot
has no way of knowing without direct knowledge.

When would that not be the case? And if it were the case, the pilot
must certainly know. If you don't hear the words "radar contact"
followed by a heading, then you're not being vectored.

No. A heading issued with a takeoff clearance is a vector.

If the term "for radar vectors" has not been stated, the prudent pilot
should ask, "Is that heading assignment for radar vectors?"

Chip Jones wrote:


When would an ODP ever be specifically issued unless more than one procedure
was available and traffic separation depended on which one you flew? Is the
assignment of an ODP something that if they don't specifically issue it as
part of your IFR clearance, then you can't fly it?

We have a vector SID here that was created because there are some TV
antennas less than 3 miles SE of the airport that are about 700 feet
above airport elevation. Every IFR aircraft gets the SID even though if
you depart to the west you don't have to have it. If you file NO SID
your take off instructions will be "leaving 4500 fly runway heading(or
some other heading that works for me)." The airport elevation is 3650.


The way it works in my airspace is that I issue you an IFR departure
clearance *after* I deconflict you from other IFR traffic. You fly any
pertinent ODP at your discretion unless I assign something else. You do an
ODP and get with traffic, and I am the guy who screwed up.

The difference at a tower is I can issue you a heading and that vector
will separate you from other traffic.

Greg Esres wrote:

Radar coverage and "radar contact" have nothing to do with terrain
clearance, except when above the MVA and a vector is issued. Even then
there can be errors, so it's wisest to always know position relative
to terrain.

Vectors can be issued below MVA in departures and missed approaches.

Otherwise, all ok. ;-)

And, with the restriction that they must see you at or above the MVA
altitude for an adjacent higher MVA sector before they allow you to enter
that higher MVA sector. It doesn't say that in the 7110.65, though, but
when it was rased at ATPAC by pilot groups, the ATC folks said, "Well,
that is just understood."

But, I have an airspace friend at SCT who says there are truly two camps
within the controller ranks about the restrictions on vectors below MVA.

Newps wrote:



In order to get a vector off the ground you have to be seen by the radar
facility within a half mile of the airport. So you can't wander into
anything.

Which can happen at KMRY only if you'r flying an F-18. ;-)