If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
#1
|
|||
|
|||
New Army Aviation Options?
I just wanted to start a new thread specifically to look at the new aircraft
the Army is talking about buying instead of the Comanche, and see what options there are available. As I read the briefings, there are basically three new manned platforms. I doubt there is funding for new designs in any of these roles. While it is really premature to say too much, with no actual performance requirements set, I'm curious what options folks see for each. 1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to be bought). Could this be a Sikorsky H-76? The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an option? 2) Light Utility Helicopter (303 to be bought) I know the Bell 412 has been mentioned. Might the Marine Corps UH-1Y also be a candidate? (Is this Huey II?) 3) C-XX Intra-Theater Lift (25 to be bought) Presumably C-27J is the frontrunner. What other options are there? -- Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail "If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed) |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
"Thomas Schoene" wrote in message ink.net... I just wanted to start a new thread specifically to look at the new aircraft the Army is talking about buying instead of the Comanche, and see what options there are available. As I read the briefings, there are basically three new manned platforms. I doubt there is funding for new designs in any of these roles. While it is really premature to say too much, with no actual performance requirements set, I'm curious what options folks see for each. 1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to be bought). Could this be a Sikorsky H-76? The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an option? I'd say both could be potential candidates, as could the MD 600 or 900 series (though the Army has in the past rather disliked the NOTAR concept, having modified those MH-6's they had in that configuration back to conventional tail rotor designs). Somewhat off-the-wall candidate would be the A-129 Mangusta, which unlike the other candidates you note (other than the H-76, to some extent) already has a well developed armament and sensor suite. The Tiger is a no-show; probably more expensive than the other candidates, and with a lot of political baggage to overcome. 2) Light Utility Helicopter (303 to be bought) I know the Bell 412 has been mentioned. Might the Marine Corps UH-1Y also be a candidate? (Is this Huey II?) I doubt the UH-1Y could be a candidate. They are dependent upon having the requisite airframes available for modification, and the Army Hueys were quite different from the twin-engine USMC variants. Huey II is another aircraft modification program, much less dramatic than the UH-1Y program. The II retained the same rotor and mast system, with new engine/transmission and revised tail rotor and stabilizer, and I would assume some "glass cockpit" work, along with the more streamlined nose of the 412 series. I think the Army would just as soon get completely away from the old cumbersome rotor system and have rigid rotor mounts across its entire fleet, so I would bet the 412 has the edge. One possible caveat to my first comment on the -1Y--if there were enough old USAF UH-1N's at DM and they could be modified to the same standard as the -1Y, then that could possibly make it a viable alternative. 3) C-XX Intra-Theater Lift (25 to be bought) Presumably C-27J is the frontrunner. What other options are there? Realistically, just the CN-295. Odds are the C-27J gets that one; some commonality with the C-130J family is a plus, and the folks at NGB (or at least NGAUS) have already expressed some interest in it in the past. ISTR that the cargo space geometry in the Spartan is a bit better than the CN-295 as well. Brooks -- Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail "If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed) |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:33:37 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote: "Thomas Schoene" wrote in message link.net... I just wanted to start a new thread specifically to look at the new aircraft the Army is talking about buying instead of the Comanche, and see what options there are available. As I read the briefings, there are basically three new manned platforms. I doubt there is funding for new designs in any of these roles. While it is really premature to say too much, with no actual performance requirements set, I'm curious what options folks see for each. 1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to be bought). Could this be a Sikorsky H-76? The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an option? USCG uses the French Daulphin, the attack version of it is called the Panther. wich is more advanced design then the A-109 IMO, but it could be an good idea to have a common airframe for multiple branches. But you would have to update for todays use, with new/better engines etc. I'd say both could be potential candidates, as could the MD 600 or 900 series (though the Army has in the past rather disliked the NOTAR concept, having modified those MH-6's they had in that configuration back to conventional tail rotor designs). Somewhat off-the-wall candidate would be the A-129 Mangusta, which unlike the other candidates you note (other than the H-76, to some extent) already has a well developed armament and sensor suite. The Tiger is a no-show; probably more expensive than the other candidates, and with a lot of political baggage to overcome. 2) Light Utility Helicopter (303 to be bought) I know the Bell 412 has been mentioned. Might the Marine Corps UH-1Y also be a candidate? (Is this Huey II?) I doubt the UH-1Y could be a candidate. They are dependent upon having the requisite airframes available for modification, and the Army Hueys were quite different from the twin-engine USMC variants. Huey II is another aircraft modification program, much less dramatic than the UH-1Y program. The II retained the same rotor and mast system, with new engine/transmission and revised tail rotor and stabilizer, and I would assume some "glass cockpit" work, along with the more streamlined nose of the 412 series. I think the Army would just as soon get completely away from the old cumbersome rotor system and have rigid rotor mounts across its entire fleet, so I would bet the 412 has the edge. One possible caveat to my first comment on the -1Y--if there were enough old USAF UH-1N's at DM and they could be modified to the same standard as the -1Y, then that could possibly make it a viable alternative. 3) C-XX Intra-Theater Lift (25 to be bought) Presumably C-27J is the frontrunner. What other options are there? Realistically, just the CN-295. Odds are the C-27J gets that one; some commonality with the C-130J family is a plus, and the folks at NGB (or at least NGAUS) have already expressed some interest in it in the past. ISTR that the cargo space geometry in the Spartan is a bit better than the CN-295 as well. Brooks -- Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail "If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed) |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
"Lyle" wrote in message ... On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:33:37 -0500, "Kevin Brooks" wrote: "Thomas Schoene" wrote in message link.net... I just wanted to start a new thread specifically to look at the new aircraft the Army is talking about buying instead of the Comanche, and see what options there are available. As I read the briefings, there are basically three new manned platforms. I doubt there is funding for new designs in any of these roles. While it is really premature to say too much, with no actual performance requirements set, I'm curious what options folks see for each. 1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to be bought). Could this be a Sikorsky H-76? The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an option? USCG uses the French Daulphin, the attack version of it is called the Panther. No, the USCG uses both the HH-65 Dolphin *and* the MH-68 (A-109); only the latter is armed, and assigned to the Helicopter Interdiction Tactical Squadron (HITRON). Brooks snip |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message ... "Lyle" wrote in message ... On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:33:37 -0500, "Kevin Brooks" wrote: "Thomas Schoene" wrote in message link.net... I just wanted to start a new thread specifically to look at the new aircraft the Army is talking about buying instead of the Comanche, and see what options there are available. As I read the briefings, there are basically three new manned platforms. I doubt there is funding for new designs in any of these roles. While it is really premature to say too much, with no actual performance requirements set, I'm curious what options folks see for each. 1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to be bought). Could this be a Sikorsky H-76? The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an option? USCG uses the French Daulphin, the attack version of it is called the Panther. No, the USCG uses both the HH-65 Dolphin *and* the MH-68 (A-109); only the latter is armed, and assigned to the Helicopter Interdiction Tactical Squadron (HITRON). Brooks Last minute update-- an article appeared earlier this month indicating that, after completing armament of the HH-60's, the HH-65's will receive an armament capability in the not-too-distant future. www.rotorhub.com/news/0211/hpower17.htm Brooks snip |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Kevin Brooks wrote:
Last minute update-- an article appeared earlier this month indicating that, after completing armament of the HH-60's, the HH-65's will receive an armament capability in the not-too-distant future. The armed A109s are leased, so I guess the Coasties would like to get the capability back into planes they actually own. When the armed helo first was proposed, the case was made that the Dolphin didn't have enough weight margins; I wonder what they're doing to change that situation. -- Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail "If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed) |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 13:12:03 -0800, Lyle wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:33:37 -0500, "Kevin Brooks" wrote: "Thomas Schoene" wrote in message hlink.net... I just wanted to start a new thread specifically to look at the new aircraft the Army is talking about buying instead of the Comanche, and see what options there are available. As I read the briefings, there are basically three new manned platforms. I doubt there is funding for new designs in any of these roles. While it is really premature to say too much, with no actual performance requirements set, I'm curious what options folks see for each. 1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to be bought). Could this be a Sikorsky H-76? The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an option? Stand corrected, didnt know that the USCG used A-109's, so i went to look up more information about it. Seems that they are useing the A-109 to knock out the engines out boats with high powerd rifles. USCG uses the French Daulphin, the attack version of it is called the Panther. wich is more advanced design then the A-109 IMO, but it could be an good idea to have a common airframe for multiple branches. But you would have to update for todays use, with new/better engines etc. I'd say both could be potential candidates, as could the MD 600 or 900 series (though the Army has in the past rather disliked the NOTAR concept, having modified those MH-6's they had in that configuration back to conventional tail rotor designs). Somewhat off-the-wall candidate would be the A-129 Mangusta, which unlike the other candidates you note (other than the H-76, to some extent) already has a well developed armament and sensor suite. The Tiger is a no-show; probably more expensive than the other candidates, and with a lot of political baggage to overcome. 2) Light Utility Helicopter (303 to be bought) I know the Bell 412 has been mentioned. Might the Marine Corps UH-1Y also be a candidate? (Is this Huey II?) I doubt the UH-1Y could be a candidate. They are dependent upon having the requisite airframes available for modification, and the Army Hueys were quite different from the twin-engine USMC variants. Huey II is another aircraft modification program, much less dramatic than the UH-1Y program. The II retained the same rotor and mast system, with new engine/transmission and revised tail rotor and stabilizer, and I would assume some "glass cockpit" work, along with the more streamlined nose of the 412 series. I think the Army would just as soon get completely away from the old cumbersome rotor system and have rigid rotor mounts across its entire fleet, so I would bet the 412 has the edge. One possible caveat to my first comment on the -1Y--if there were enough old USAF UH-1N's at DM and they could be modified to the same standard as the -1Y, then that could possibly make it a viable alternative. 3) C-XX Intra-Theater Lift (25 to be bought) Presumably C-27J is the frontrunner. What other options are there? Realistically, just the CN-295. Odds are the C-27J gets that one; some commonality with the C-130J family is a plus, and the folks at NGB (or at least NGAUS) have already expressed some interest in it in the past. ISTR that the cargo space geometry in the Spartan is a bit better than the CN-295 as well. Brooks -- Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail "If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed) |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Thomas Schoene wrote:
I just wanted to start a new thread specifically to look at the new aircraft the Army is talking about buying instead of the Comanche, and see what options there are available. As I read the briefings, there are basically three new manned platforms. I doubt there is funding for new designs in any of these roles. While it is really premature to say too much, with no actual performance requirements set, I'm curious what options folks see for each. 1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to be bought). Could this be a Sikorsky H-76? The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an option? Probably not. I'd think an MD-5xx could be in the running, if they go OTS. 2) Light Utility Helicopter (303 to be bought) I know the Bell 412 has been mentioned. AB-139, Bell 430, maybe something from EC (Suuurre). Also the S-76, or the 430 for the recon mission. Kind of depends just where they draw the line at "Light". Might the Marine Corps UH-1Y also be a candidate? (Is this Huey II?) 3) C-XX Intra-Theater Lift (25 to be bought) Presumably C-27J is the frontrunner. What other options are there? CASA C-295. Unlikely, given the C-27J's engine/cockpit commonality with the C-130J. The C-295 is smaller, slower and less powerful, but cheaper. Guy |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Guy Alcala wrote: Thomas Schoene wrote: I just wanted to start a new thread specifically to look at the new aircraft the Army is talking about buying instead of the Comanche, and see what options there are available. As I read the briefings, there are basically three new manned platforms. I doubt there is funding for new designs in any of these roles. While it is really premature to say too much, with no actual performance requirements set, I'm curious what options folks see for each. 1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to be bought). Could this be a Sikorsky H-76? The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an option? Probably not. I'd think an MD-5xx could be in the running, if they go OTS. 2) Light Utility Helicopter (303 to be bought) I know the Bell 412 has been mentioned. AB-139, Bell 430, maybe something from EC (Suuurre). Also the S-76, or the 430 for the recon mission. Kind of depends just where they draw the line at "Light". Might the Marine Corps UH-1Y also be a candidate? (Is this Huey II?) 3) C-XX Intra-Theater Lift (25 to be bought) Presumably C-27J is the frontrunner. What other options are there? CASA C-295. Unlikely, given the C-27J's engine/cockpit commonality with the C-130J. The C-295 is smaller, slower and less powerful, but cheaper. Guy Problem with foreign-built aircraft or helos for the U.S. military: the NIH syndrome. Congress will make sure the military buys American unless there is no other option. Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access! |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
"Matt Wiser" wrote in message news:403e054f$1@bg2.... Guy Alcala wrote: Thomas Schoene wrote: I just wanted to start a new thread specifically to look at the new aircraft the Army is talking about buying instead of the Comanche, and see what options there are available. As I read the briefings, there are basically three new manned platforms. I doubt there is funding for new designs in any of these roles. While it is really premature to say too much, with no actual performance requirements set, I'm curious what options folks see for each. 1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to be bought). Could this be a Sikorsky H-76? The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an option? Probably not. I'd think an MD-5xx could be in the running, if they go OTS. 2) Light Utility Helicopter (303 to be bought) I know the Bell 412 has been mentioned. AB-139, Bell 430, maybe something from EC (Suuurre). Also the S-76, or the 430 for the recon mission. Kind of depends just where they draw the line at "Light". Might the Marine Corps UH-1Y also be a candidate? (Is this Huey II?) 3) C-XX Intra-Theater Lift (25 to be bought) Presumably C-27J is the frontrunner. What other options are there? CASA C-295. Unlikely, given the C-27J's engine/cockpit commonality with the C-130J. The C-295 is smaller, slower and less powerful, but cheaper. Guy Problem with foreign-built aircraft or helos for the U.S. military: the NIH syndrome. Congress will make sure the military buys American unless there is no other option. History does not support that allegation. How many HH-65 Dauphins does the USCG operate? How many Falcon's does the USCG operate? How many A-109's do they operate? How many Shorts C-23's does the ARNG operate? What is the original source for both the T-6 and T-45 (and before you get all wishy-washy on those two programs because they were actually manufactured here in the US, realize that is the way many nations operate--most of the NATO F-16's were build in Europe, F-16's are being bult in the ROK, and Japan manufactured its F-15J's)? The only one of these programs that I can see where there was really "no other option" was the C-23 buy. Brooks |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
AOPA Stall/Spin Study -- Stowell's Review (8,000 words) | Rich Stowell | Aerobatics | 28 | January 2nd 09 02:26 PM |
General Aviation Legal Defense Fund | Dr. Guenther Eichhorn | Aerobatics | 0 | May 11th 04 10:43 PM |
Associate Publisher Wanted - Aviation & Business Journals | Mergatroide | Aviation Marketplace | 1 | January 13th 04 08:26 PM |
Army Aviation Center welcomes new commander | Otis Willie | Military Aviation | 1 | December 17th 03 10:45 PM |
Warszaw Pact War Plans ( The Effects of a Global Thermonuclear War ...) | Matt Wiser | Military Aviation | 0 | December 7th 03 08:20 PM |