Newbie holding questions

Steve, help me understand the following scenario:

I'm filed and cleared from KROG to KTUL with a filed ETA of 13:40. If I
lose voice communications prior to arrival am I to understand that I'm
technically cleared to execute the approach immediately upon arrival
regardless of my time over the FAF?

I think I was taught to proceed to the FAF and then hold at the last
assigned altitude until my filed arrival time, at which point I can
execute the approach. Now I'm sure I'd rather shoot the approach as soon
as I get there, but is that the correct thing to do?

Based on your comments about EFCs not being required if no delay is
anticipated regardless of enroute or terminal, what should I expect in
the above scenario?


-----Original Message-----
From: Steven P. McNicoll ]
Posted At: Monday, January 09, 2006 1:59 PM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Newbie holding questions
Subject: Newbie holding questions


"Jim Carter" wrote in message
. net...

Okay Steve, I didn't realize until just now that you are only
talking
about enroute holds. I was applying your comments to all types of
holds.
Will you agree that a hold at an initial approach fix will always
include and EFC time?


I'm talking about all holds in which no delay is expected. The
example I
provided was an enroute hold but FAAO 7110.65 does not differentiate
between
enroute holds where no delay is expected and holds at an IAF where no
delay
is expected.

I obtained my cfii about a year ago last September. It seems that during
every every flight I find something new and different from my past
training and experience. My tale today concerns practing holds in
controlled airspace.

We filed for local hold/approach practice in the CAK area (class c). We
had just completed intercept and hold over the vor and were cleared direct
to the ndb. Our clearance was delayed due to traffic increases and we did
not hear back from atc until we were about two miles from the fix
(constant atc chatter). The clearance stated "I have continuous traffic
west of the ndb, hold east".

Our intercept was approximately 270 degrees so I sketched out hold east of
the ndb on the 090 bearing, right turns, one minute legs, altitude from
out previous clearance. Called atc with this clearance and entered the
hold. During the second circuit the controller called back to find out
what we would like to do next. On to the gps full approach.....

After landing I pulled out the "Instrument Proedures Handbook"
(FAA-H-8261-1) and found "... ATC may request that you hold at any
designated reporting point in a standard holding pattern at the MEA or the
MRA....". Also found "Unplanned holding at en enroute fixes may be
expected on airway or route radials, bearings, or courses". "If holding
pattern is not charted at the fix, hold on the inbound course using right
turns".

This is an excellent reference to use in addition to the FAR/AIM that is
often quoted. I hope that this is helpful to the original poster, the
thread seems to have wandered a bit.
Tom

Jim Carter wrote:
Steve, help me understand the following scenario:

I'm filed and cleared from KROG to KTUL with a filed ETA of 13:40. If I
lose voice communications prior to arrival am I to understand that I'm
technically cleared to execute the approach immediately upon arrival
regardless of my time over the FAF?

I think I was taught to proceed to the FAF and then hold at the last
assigned altitude until my filed arrival time, at which point I can
execute the approach. Now I'm sure I'd rather shoot the approach as soon
as I get there, but is that the correct thing to do?

Based on your comments about EFCs not being required if no delay is
anticipated regardless of enroute or terminal, what should I expect in
the above scenario?

I'm not Steve.

I don't think the answer to this question has anything to do with Steve's
distinction relating to holds where a delay is or is not expected.

In the case you postulate, where voice communication is lost and you have a
flight plan that includes an initial approach fix, the regulations require you
to do exactly as you say you were taught: hold at the last assigned altitude
until your filed arrival time.

Regulations notwithstanding, there is a consensus among pilots and controllers
that a better idea is to just get out of the system as soon as you can. If VMC,
land as soon as practical (which is what the regulations require anyway) and if
IMC, just go ahead and execute the approach or do whatever it takes to get out
of the IFR system. ATC has been tracking your NORDO target and is reserving a
big patch of airspace for you. The sooner you get on the ground and they can
release that airspace, the happier everyone will be. Google for numerous
previous threads in this newsgroup on this subject.

All of the above has nothing to do with paper stops or assigned holds with and
without an expected delay. I'm not going to to get in the middle of that one.
I'll let Steve or someone else speak to that question.

Dave

On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 21:17:02 GMT, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"A Lieberman" wrote in message
. ..

I am like you Jim, seems that Steve is not very clear in what he says.


What did I say that was not very clear?

Answer this question. Why would I hold if there is no delay? A paper stop
is a delay. I am no longer direct.

Define hold.

Hold is doing a racetrack pattern around a fix is what I was taught. If
you tell me to hold, then I am no longer cleared beyond a fix. I am now
doing circles and expect an EFC to stop spinning in circles. Are their
other holding patterns I need to know about?

FAAO 7110.65

Subsection please. I googled the above and it gave me visual flight rule
references

and FAR 91.185 specifically refer to holding instructions
without an EFC and the AIM does so implicitly. Why then do some insist that
holding instructions must always include an EFC?

Because when there is a no delay, I expect to be flying a straight line.
You tell me to hold, I better start holding per published hold instructions
and flying circles.

Go to http://www.vateud-td.org/references/Holding.asp

TAKEN from the above website
When no delay is expected, the controller should issue a clearance beyond
the fix as soon as possible and, whenever possible, at least 5 minutes
before the aircraft reaches the clearance limit.

I don't see me flying in circles Steve with the above instructions. I am
flying to a fix, you give me a new clearance limit. No teardrop, parallel
or direct entry. I fly a straight line.

You keep saying that I would be holding with no delay which is absolutely
wrong. My IFR filing does not include MBO to JAN, to MCB hold at MCB
direct to L31 does it? Not at all. I file to the fixes as appropriate.
You put me in a hold, and guess what, the clearance has changed and I need
an EFC.

How many ways can I say, if ATC puts me in a hold, then I expect an EFC.

The above seems to be a real good reference on on holding. Read toward the
bottom of the page for ATC actions. Read 4F and tell me that is incorrect.
And if it's incorrect, please provide a reference.

Allen

On 01/10/06 16:04, A Lieberman wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 21:17:02 GMT, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"A Lieberman" wrote in message
. ..

I am like you Jim, seems that Steve is not very clear in what he says.


What did I say that was not very clear?

Answer this question. Why would I hold if there is no delay? A paper stop
is a delay. I am no longer direct.

Define hold.

Hold is doing a racetrack pattern around a fix is what I was taught. If
you tell me to hold, then I am no longer cleared beyond a fix. I am now
doing circles and expect an EFC to stop spinning in circles. Are their
other holding patterns I need to know about?

FAAO 7110.65

Subsection please. I googled the above and it gave me visual flight rule
references

and FAR 91.185 specifically refer to holding instructions
without an EFC and the AIM does so implicitly. Why then do some insist that
holding instructions must always include an EFC?

Because when there is a no delay, I expect to be flying a straight line.
You tell me to hold, I better start holding per published hold instructions
and flying circles.

Go to http://www.vateud-td.org/references/Holding.asp

TAKEN from the above website
When no delay is expected, the controller should issue a clearance beyond
the fix as soon as possible and, whenever possible, at least 5 minutes
before the aircraft reaches the clearance limit.

I'm not Steve, but ... what if the controller does not issue the clearance
beyond the current limit? If your radios are still working, you should hold, right?
If your radios have failed, that's a different story.


I don't see me flying in circles Steve with the above instructions. I am
flying to a fix, you give me a new clearance limit. No teardrop, parallel
or direct entry. I fly a straight line.

You keep saying that I would be holding with no delay which is absolutely
wrong. My IFR filing does not include MBO to JAN, to MCB hold at MCB
direct to L31 does it? Not at all. I file to the fixes as appropriate.
You put me in a hold, and guess what, the clearance has changed and I need
an EFC.

How many ways can I say, if ATC puts me in a hold, then I expect an EFC.

The above seems to be a real good reference on on holding. Read toward the
bottom of the page for ATC actions. Read 4F and tell me that is incorrect.
And if it's incorrect, please provide a reference.

Allen


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

Mark Hansen wrote:



Subsection please. I googled the above and it gave me visual flight rule
references


7110.65P, Paragraph 4-6-1 c

On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:36:01 -0800, wrote:

Mark Hansen wrote:



Subsection please. I googled the above and it gave me visual flight rule
references


7110.65P, Paragraph 4-6-1 c

Thank you Tim,

So, from what I read, if I get from ATC, no delay, then I won't be holding
and simply proceeding on to the next fix in my route that I have been
cleared to. I won't be required to enter a holding pattern as there is no
delay.

I will keep sticking to my statement, as I have come across nothing to
contradict the fact, if I am put in a hold where I am required to fly in a
circle, enter a hold via tear drop, parallel or direct entry, there should
be an EFC issued by the air traffic controller.

Allen

A Lieberman wrote:

On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:36:01 -0800, wrote:


Mark Hansen wrote:



Subsection please. I googled the above and it gave me visual flight rule
references


7110.65P, Paragraph 4-6-1 c


Thank you Tim,

So, from what I read, if I get from ATC, no delay, then I won't be holding
and simply proceeding on to the next fix in my route that I have been
cleared to. I won't be required to enter a holding pattern as there is no
delay.

I will keep sticking to my statement, as I have come across nothing to
contradict the fact, if I am put in a hold where I am required to fly in a
circle, enter a hold via tear drop, parallel or direct entry, there should
be an EFC issued by the air traffic controller.

Allen

I can think of an example in my area where LA Center uses "paper stop"
holds for handoffs to Palm Springs Approach Control because Palm Springs
can't see the arrivals on radar due to terrain until they are almost on
top of the holding fix. 90% of the time approach control pick up voice
and radar in time to cancel the hold. On occasion, things are in the
way, and the hold will then be required. Approach control at that time
will issue a formal or ad hoc EFC, such as "plan one turn in the hold."

And, so it goes. The center can't issue an EFC when it appears there
will be no delay. Yet, the paper stop is like a yellow light for a
train engineer that was red, so the engineer proceeds slowly but expects
it to turn green. Oops, it turns red and he has to start slowing down.

"Jim Carter" wrote in message
. net...

Steve, help me understand the following scenario:

I'm filed and cleared from KROG to KTUL with a filed ETA of 13:40. If I
lose voice communications prior to arrival am I to understand that I'm
technically cleared to execute the approach immediately upon arrival
regardless of my time over the FAF?

I think I was taught to proceed to the FAF and then hold at the last
assigned altitude until my filed arrival time, at which point I can
execute the approach. Now I'm sure I'd rather shoot the approach as soon
as I get there, but is that the correct thing to do?

Based on your comments about EFCs not being required if no delay is
anticipated regardless of enroute or terminal, what should I expect in
the above scenario?


That's is an entirely different situation.

The OP's questions were about assigned holds. Jim Macklin stated that an
EFC should always be part of a hold clearance. I pointed out that an EFC is
not issued when no delay is expected. In your scenario above you're never
instructed to hold, your clearance limit remains KTUL throughout your
flight.

"A Lieberman" wrote in message
. ..

Answer this question. Why would I hold if there is no delay?


You wouldn't. You'd receive clearance beyond the previously issued holding
fix before you reached it.



A paper stop is a delay. I am no longer direct.


A paper stop is a delay only on paper, there's no actual delay because
there's no actual hold. That's why it's called a "paper stop".



Define hold.


The Pilot/Controller Glossary defines "hold procedure" as "a predetermined
maneuver which keeps aircraft within a specified airspace while awaiting
further clearance from air traffic control." I'll go with that.



Hold is doing a racetrack pattern around a fix is what I was taught. If
you tell me to hold, then I am no longer cleared beyond a fix. I am now
doing circles and expect an EFC to stop spinning in circles. Are their
other holding patterns I need to know about?


But you don't do any circles if you receive clearance beyond the holding fix
before reaching it. That's what the controller is anticipating, that's why
he told you no delay was expected and didn't issue an EFC.



FAAO 7110.65


Subsection please. I googled the above and it gave me visual flight rule
references


Paragraph 4-6-1.c. I gave you that reference a week ago.



Because when there is a no delay, I expect to be flying a straight line.
You tell me to hold, I better start holding per published hold
instructions and flying circles.


Let's say you're cleared to a fix on your route some thirty miles or so
ahead. Would you start holding immediately, at your present position, or
would you enter a hold at that fix ahead of you?



Go to http://www.vateud-td.org/references/Holding.asp

TAKEN from the above website
When no delay is expected, the controller should issue a clearance beyond
the fix as soon as possible and, whenever possible, at least 5 minutes
before the aircraft reaches the clearance limit.

I don't see me flying in circles Steve with the above instructions. I am
flying to a fix, you give me a new clearance limit. No teardrop, parallel
or direct entry. I fly a straight line.


Correct. That's a paper stop. That's the situation I've been trying to
explain to you.



You keep saying that I would be holding with no delay which is absolutely
wrong. My IFR filing does not include MBO to JAN, to MCB hold at MCB
direct to L31 does it? Not at all. I file to the fixes as appropriate.
You put me in a hold, and guess what, the clearance has changed and I need
an EFC.


I never said anything at all like that. What are these references to MBO,
JAN, and MCB? I haven't seen them previously mentioned in this thread.



How many ways can I say, if ATC puts me in a hold, then I expect an EFC.


I don't know. How many ways can I say if ATC issues holding instructions
without an EFC because no delay is expected and clears you beyond the
holding fix before you reach it you haven't been delayed because you never
entered the hold?



The above seems to be a real good reference on on holding. Read toward
the bottom of the page for ATC actions. Read 4F and tell me that is
incorrect.


It's not incorrect, but it's not the situation we're discussing. Read
number 3, that's what we're discussing.