If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
IFR Passengers?
What are your standards for taking passengers up into actual conditions? I've developed a decent feel for what people will tolerate VFR- who can take a few bumps, who will get scared if its windy, etc. But I haven't got any idea what to make of taking pax into the soup. Is it as disorienting for them as it is for an untrained VFR pilot? Are they usually OK so long as it's smooth? What do you tell them before you take them into actual for the first time, if anything? Anybody ever have somebody get real scared, how did you deal with it? Just a few wonderings from a pretty green instrument pilot... Best, -cwk. |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
C Kingsbury wrote:
Is it as disorienting for them as it is for an untrained VFR pilot? It's my impression that they're not as disoriented. I think it's because they don't really have to do anything. Are they usually OK so long as it's smooth? Yeah. They even expect it to be a little bumpier than "clear" air. They seem more comfortable in mild turbulence in IMC than in VMC. Go figure. What do you tell them before you take them into actual for the first time, if anything? I usually describe the weather along the route. When I expect IMC, I just tell them that we'll be in the clouds for some of the trip. It's usually just interpreted as an "obstructed view". Anybody ever have somebody get real scared, how did you deal with it? I surprised a passenger once. I was on a localizer approach, right down to minimums (OVC005), and saw the runway right at the MAP. I was still 500 feet above it, and I instinctively put it in a hard slip to get down quickly. I sensed a mild gasp from the right seat. My passenger had apparently never flown sideways before. I very calmly (and confidently) said, "This is called a side slip. It's a little trick to slow down and lose altitude quickly, so we can land." That reassured her perfectly, although she described the approach as "exciting" after we landed. |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
In article . net, "C
Kingsbury" wrote: What do you tell them before you take them into actual for the first time, if anything? For your own peace of mind, if you are going to be flying anywhere near thunderstorms, tell your passengers not to take any pictures with the flash. A few years ago someone, I believe it was the Natalies, posted a story about one of their passengers doing that to them. -- Bob Noel Seen on Kerry's campaign airplane: "the real deal" oh yeah baby. |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
C Kingsbury wrote:
What are your standards for taking passengers up into actual conditions? They must be somewhere near 98.6F with an IQ above room temperature! :-) Seriously, I've never given it much conscious thought I just admit. I've developed a decent feel for what people will tolerate VFR- who can take a few bumps, who will get scared if its windy, etc. But I haven't got any idea what to make of taking pax into the soup. Is it as disorienting for them as it is for an untrained VFR pilot? Are they usually OK so long as it's smooth? What do you tell them before you take them into actual for the first time, if anything? Anybody ever have somebody get real scared, how did you deal with it? I think I've only had family members or colleagues from work with me on flights in actual. So far, nobody has had any problems other than boredom. However, all of my colleagues are seasoned airline travelers so they are used to flying when they can't see anything out the windows. And my wife and kids seemed to not have any problem either. Typically, disorientation comes from getting conflicting signals to your senses (the instruments vs. your inner ear). If you can't see outside and you don't look at the instruments, then there aren't any conflicting signals (the inner ear wins if the eyes can't see anything). So, I don't see why a passenger would get disoriented as long as they don't know enough to look at the AI. The one exception I can think of is flying between layers that are tilted enough to where your eyes think you are tilted when you are actually straight and level. I've heard of this, but have never experienced it myself. Whenever I've been between layers, they didn't have enough tilt to be noticeable. Good luck with your first passenger in actual. Matt |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Brien K. Meehan wrote:
C Kingsbury wrote: Anybody ever have somebody get real scared, how did you deal with it? I surprised a passenger once. I was on a localizer approach, right down to minimums (OVC005), and saw the runway right at the MAP. I was still 500 feet above it, and I instinctively put it in a hard slip to get down quickly. I sensed a mild gasp from the right seat. My passenger had apparently never flown sideways before. I very calmly (and confidently) said, "This is called a side slip. It's a little trick to slow down and lose altitude quickly, so we can land." That reassured her perfectly, although she described the approach as "exciting" after we landed. I've done the same thing VFR ... with the same results. It is the one thing I never think to brief the pax on in advance because, as you say, it is simply instinctive for us and you just don't always know when you are going to need a little slip. Probably the biggest surpise I gave a passenger was coming into, I think, Lynchburg, VA with a stong crosswind. I was crabbing probably 20 degrees on final and I had the pax helping to find the runway (also a close to miniumums day). I forgot to tell the passenger to look for the runway 20 degrees off the nose. He saw it first, but asked why it was "crooked." :-) Matt |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 03:30:49 GMT, "C Kingsbury"
wrote: What are your standards for taking passengers up into actual conditions? IFR in a nice stratus layer, or an IFR climb to VFR conditions above is an easy choice. These rides tend to be smooth. IFR in rain (especially heavier rain) tends to worry passengers. IFR in and out of cumulus can be intimidating for a non-pilot passenger. This is especially true if throttle jockeying is required to keep airspeed in check. It is disconcerting to see the plane approach the cloud, enter the cloud, hit the turbulence, see the pilot making control corrections, and then start hearing the engine rev up and down. -Nathan |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
"C Kingsbury" wrote in message ink.net... What are your standards for taking passengers up into actual conditions? I don't have any particular screening standards. I just apply the principle of explaining to people what to expect, and to keep them informed as we go. My experience is that passengers can tolerate a lot if they just aren't surprised too much. I explain the general conditions expected during the flight, that we may pass through some clouds, and that flight through and around clouds is usually a little bumpier than in clear air. Especially early in the flight, I explain what I am about to do regarding any substantial changes in attitude or engine adjustments. Also, if I need to slow down before or after entering a cloud, I explain that, just like slowing down in a car before going over bumps in the road. A phase of flight involving extensive maneuvering and power and attitude changes, like departure and arrival, gets some advance explanation. Gentle maneuvering around clouds, rather than penetration, can be useful with inexperienced passengers. I agree with another poster that rain is more of a problem, especially if it is hard enough to make a lot of noise. Again, a confident, comforting explanation helps. And just keep the music playing on the intercom! :-) It would be great if all passengers were like my 6-yr old grandson. "Go through that cloud, Papa!". "Now that one!" "Slice that one with your right wing!" "Wheeee!" Stan |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
"C Kingsbury" wrote: What are your standards for taking passengers up into actual conditions? Risk first, then comfort. Most passengers cannot make informed decisions about the risks they are accepting; they must leave that up to the pilot. Therefore, it is the pilot's responsibility to gauge what is "too much" risk for other people. That puts a pilot in some pretty grey decision making areas. I don't have a good guideline for everyone to use, only my personal standards. I will not take (non-pilot) passengers in my single-engine airplane in IMC: At night. If the departure airport is not at least 100' above minimums and forecast to stay that way a while. If the destination and a large area around it are forecast to be at minimums. The route does not offer plenty of "outs." Icing is a possibility. As for comfort, I guess you just have to know your passengers, and sometimes you're going to be surprised one way or the other. I have one friend whom I know from experience will be terrified by turbulence, but I never would have guessed it before I saw it happen. -- Dan C172RG at BFM |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
"C Kingsbury" wrote in message link.net...
What are your standards for taking passengers up into actual conditions? I've developed a decent feel for what people will tolerate VFR- who can take a few bumps, who will get scared if its windy, etc. But I haven't got any idea what to make of taking pax into the soup. Is it as disorienting for them as it is for an untrained VFR pilot? Are they usually OK so long as it's smooth? What do you tell them before you take them into actual for the first time, if anything? Anybody ever have somebody get real scared, how did you deal with it? I warned my wife about it years ago. I told her about the attitude indicator. Today, she says she sometimes gets disoriented but just looks at the attitude indicator. My kids are in the back and have never said anything about it. I usually hear hooting and yelling when we go into the clouds. They think its Disney Land. -Robert |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
"C Kingsbury" wrote
What are your standards for taking passengers up into actual conditions? At this point, I don't even think about it. In a well-equipped twin, I just don't see it as an issue. Now if there's ice... When I first started, I would not carry pax in IMC unless I had a copilot. Under Part 135, single pilot passenger carrying under IFR calls for 1200TT, 100 hours in make and model, and a functional autopilot. Not saying you have to do it that way, but it's not a bad idea either. Basically, my suggestion is that until your flying gets to a point where you don't care whether you are in the soup or in the clear, and someone watching you can't tell if you are flying instruments or visual by the way you are flying, you may not be ready to take passengers into IMC. Passengers who are themselves pilots or equivalent (skydivers, race car drivers, etc.) can be told the risks and make their own decisions. Is it as disorienting for them as it is for an untrained VFR pilot? No, because they just don't pay attention. Are they usually OK so long as it's smooth? Actually, they expect it to be bumpy in clouds. What do you tell them before you take them into actual for the first time, if anything? Nothing, really. Anybody ever have somebody get real scared, how did you deal with it? I once had a passenger puke. Actually, she was a CFII/MEI (I believe her MEI was from AllATP's) and was riding right seat. I think makybe she was logging it. I convinced her that the layer we were about to climb through was too thin to matter. Of course I climbed through it on instruments, wings perfectly level. The passenger in the back was listening to his walkman and noticed nothing. She became disoriented and puked. Michael |
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Looping during a commercial flight | LordAvalon | Aerobatics | 10 | October 23rd 04 04:05 PM |
Homebuilt Aircraft Frequently Asked Questions List (FAQ) | Ron Wanttaja | Home Built | 0 | September 2nd 04 05:15 AM |
regaining night currency but not alone | Teacherjh | Instrument Flight Rules | 11 | May 28th 04 02:08 PM |
Homebuilt Aircraft Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) | Ron Wanttaja | Home Built | 0 | May 1st 04 07:29 PM |
Control Tower Controversy brewing in the FAA | PlanetJ | Instrument Flight Rules | 168 | December 6th 03 01:51 PM |