Obstacle avoidance between take-off and airway

Mxsmanic wrote:
Sam Spade writes:


What part of "Not Authorized" doesn't your mousetrap brain understand?


Ah ... I thought NA meant not applicable. It makes more sense now.

If you had ever read FAR Part 97 you wouldn't have thought that.

On Jan 13, 12:28 pm, Sam Spade wrote:
[...]
Oops! My bad. I didn't look carefull and thought I was responding to a
pilot.

Yet you continue replying...

Mxsmanic wrote:
Yesterday I tried to plan a flight from Big Bear City (California) to Santa
Monica, in a Bonanza. The routing I worked out was L35..DAWNA.V8.PDZ.V186
TIFNI.ELMOO.DARTS..KSMO. DAWNA is on a portion of the airway that shows a MEA
of 10500 on the chart. Since I was westbound, I figured to climb to 12000. I
planned to depart from runway 26. My calculations showed that the Bonanza
could carry out this climb.

My question is: How do I make sure that I don't hit anything between the
runway and the first fix on my filed route? The ODP for Big Bear only gives
details for runway 8, and says "N/A" for runway 26. The only departure
procedure is an obstacle departure, also for runway 8. So what's the proper
way for me to plan a flight so that I don't run into anything between the time
I leave runway 26 and the time I reach DAWNA? Should I use a VFR sectional?
Is there something on en-route IFR charts that I'm missing? Did I overlook
something in the Instrument Procedures Handbook (it seems surprisingly vague
on this)?

If no instrument departure gradients are published in a departure
procedure, then the default gradient requirement applies, which is 200
ft/NM.

John

Sam Spade writes:

If you had ever read FAR Part 97 you wouldn't have thought that.

Well, I could have read it and forgotten it, but in this case I simply had not
read Part 97 in detail. After reading your post, I note that 97.3 does indeed
define NA as "not authorized." Thanks for the pointer.

J.Kahn writes:

If no instrument departure gradients are published in a departure
procedure, then the default gradient requirement applies, which is 200
ft/NM.

OK, thanks.

It looks like IFR departures from runway 26 in L35 aren't allowed at all, so I
suppose I'll have to depart from runway 8 in the future if I really want to
depart IFR. Odd that there's nothing for runway 26 since it leads right over
the lake.

On Jan 13, 5:09*am, wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:13:08 +0100, Mxsmanic
wrote:





Yesterday I tried to plan a flight from Big Bear City (California) to Santa
Monica, in a Bonanza. *The routing I worked out was L35..DAWNA.V8.PDZ.V186
TIFNI.ELMOO.DARTS..KSMO. *DAWNA is on a portion of the airway that shows a MEA
of 10500 on the chart. *Since I was westbound, I figured to climb to 12000. *I
planned to depart from runway 26. *My calculations showed that the Bonanza
could carry out this climb.

My question is: *How do I make sure that I don't hit anything between the
runway and the first fix on my filed route? *The ODP for Big Bear only gives
details for runway 8, and says "N/A" for runway 26. *The only departure
procedure is an obstacle departure, also for runway 8. *So what's the proper
way for me to plan a flight so that I don't run into anything between the time
I leave runway 26 and the time I reach DAWNA? *Should I use a VFR sectional?
Is there something on en-route IFR charts that I'm missing? *Did I overlook
something in the Instrument Procedures Handbook (it seems surprisingly vague
on this)?

I don't have the plate in front of me. *Sounds like there is no ifr
procedure off runway 26, so there is no way to be sure of obstacles
without using a vfr sectional as you say. *Personally I don't know of
anyone who has used a vfr sectional in ifr conditions, and I don't
think I ever would. *Of course, you could fly visually if weather
permitted. *Stan- Hide quoted text -

Your either joking or don't fly IFR in GA aircraft very often. There
are lots of airports where you have to define your own IFR departure
using the sectional charts. Some airports don't even show up on the
EnRoute charts.

-Robert

On Jan 14, 9:50*am, "J.Kahn" wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote:
Yesterday I tried to plan a flight from Big Bear City (California) to Santa
Monica, in a Bonanza. *The routing I worked out was L35..DAWNA.V8.PDZ.V186
TIFNI.ELMOO.DARTS..KSMO. *DAWNA is on a portion of the airway that shows a MEA
of 10500 on the chart. *Since I was westbound, I figured to climb to 12000. *I
planned to depart from runway 26. *My calculations showed that the Bonanza
could carry out this climb.

My question is: *How do I make sure that I don't hit anything between the
runway and the first fix on my filed route? *The ODP for Big Bear only gives
details for runway 8, and says "N/A" for runway 26. *The only departure
procedure is an obstacle departure, also for runway 8. *So what's the proper
way for me to plan a flight so that I don't run into anything between the time
I leave runway 26 and the time I reach DAWNA? *Should I use a VFR sectional?
Is there something on en-route IFR charts that I'm missing? *Did I overlook
something in the Instrument Procedures Handbook (it seems surprisingly vague
on this)?

If no instrument departure gradients are published in a departure
procedure, then the default gradient requirement applies, which is 200
ft/NM.

Huh? The FAA guarantees you won't hit anything when you are not flying
a procedure as long as you climb at 200 ft/nm? I think you are mixing
up two different things. When there is no procedure in place for
departure you grab your sectional and plan a route. Lots of airports
don't even appear in the approach manual.

-robert, CFII

On Jan 14, 11:04*am, Mxsmanic wrote:
J.Kahn writes:
If no instrument departure gradients are published in a departure
procedure, then the default gradient requirement applies, which is 200
ft/NM.

OK, thanks.

It looks like IFR departures from runway 26 in L35 aren't allowed at all, so I
suppose I'll have to depart from runway 8 in the future if I really want to
depart IFR. *Odd that there's nothing for runway 26 since it leads right over
the lake.

No, the procedure is not authorized on runway 26.

-robert

Mxsmanic wrote:
J.Kahn writes:

If no instrument departure gradients are published in a departure
procedure, then the default gradient requirement applies, which is 200
ft/NM.

OK, thanks.

It looks like IFR departures from runway 26 in L35 aren't allowed at all, so I
suppose I'll have to depart from runway 8 in the future if I really want to
depart IFR. Odd that there's nothing for runway 26 since it leads right over
the lake.


So you can be grounded by unfavorable winds... that sucks.

I wonder if the reason is simply that departure in that direction
doesn't meet 200 ft/NM at some distance out, maybe 10 or 20 miles, but
the FAA has not got around to doing the required survey to arrive at a
specified departure gradient requirement so they just declare it NA
until someday they get around to it. I believe that you have to be
able to have obstacle clearance with 200 ft/NM out to 22 NM from the
runway before you have to have a specified gradient other than default,
which gets you to 4400 HAA.

John

On Jan 14, 3:59*pm, "J.Kahn" wrote:

I wonder if the reason is simply that departure in that direction
doesn't meet 200 ft/NM at some distance out, maybe 10 or 20 miles, but
the FAA has not got around to doing the required survey to arrive at a
specified departure gradient requirement so they just declare it NA
until someday they get around to it. * I believe that you have to be
able to have obstacle clearance with 200 ft/NM out to 22 NM from the
runway before you have to have a specified gradient other than default,
which gets you to 4400 HAA.

The 200 ft/nm applies to departure procedures that do not otherwise
specify a minimum climb gradient. Absent a departure procedure the
pilot is free to make up any procedure he sees fit. The FAA has not
come close to visiting every airport and creating DPs for every runway
out there.

-robert, CFII