Embedded

which gives a more studied look at the current situation, and should please
anti-Bu****es (and cause pro-Bu****es to choke on their Wheaties) with phrases
such as "unilateralist rush to war," but is nonetheless quite positive about
the situation, while giving a good thumbnail description of the lay of the
land.

Shucks, I suppose I'm a pro-Bu****e. But I regarded it as a rush to
war, and it was of course unilaterla, or at least bilateral.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Subject: Embedded
From: Cub Driver
Date: 10/5/03 3:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


which gives a more studied look at the current situation, and should please
anti-Bu****es (and cause pro-Bu****es to choke on their Wheaties) with
phrases
such as "unilateralist rush to war," but is nonetheless quite positive about
the situation, while giving a good thumbnail description of the lay of the
land.

Shucks, I suppose I'm a pro-Bu****e. But I regarded it as a rush to
war, and it was of course unilaterla, or at least bilateral.


all the best -- Dan Ford

We have men dying every day. Is it worth it?

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Embedded
From: ost (Chris Mark)
Date: 10/4/03 1:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

We are not in the deep do-do, the
media insists we are.



Chris Mark

Define deep do-do. No WMD. No connection to WTC. Young Americans are dying.
It'll cost a billion before it is all over. And no sign of the imminent
threat from Iraq. The picture is less than rosy. It is hard not to question the
administrations judgement under these conditions.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

(ArtKramr) wrote:

We have men dying every day. Is it worth it?

We have hundreds of innocent Iraqi civilians *not* dying every day, and
a large number of fairly monstrous assholes who are really, most
sincerely dead.

It is.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

From: artkramr@

Define deep do-do

Not facing a guerilla war. Not facing a hostile population on the verge of a
national uprising against US presence. Not even close to "another
Vietnam"--not that I ever thought that Vietnam was a "Vietnam."

And no sign of the imminent
threat from Iraq.

That is one of Bernard Henri-Levi's key points. He agrees that invading Iraq
was right morally--to depose an odious dictator, period. But it was wrong
politically and strategically because it took our eyes off the main threat
which is principally to the US, but in the long run to all of Western
civilization. This threat--and it is a very, very serious one--in his view
emanates from Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, and to a lesser extent from Yemen.
Now the US is tied up with Iraq, there is no solid allied front against radical
Islam in the West...and the most violent and devastating attacks against the
West are building towards their inevitable execution while the West and its
sole remaining paladin (I *love* that description of the US--especially coming
from a Frenchman!) squabble among themselves and focus on the wrong enemy.

It sure would have been nice if the US and Europe (and even Japan, Thailand and
other Asian nations) could have sat down together and planned out how to
counter this real challenge to our civilization and acted together to defeat
it. If Pakistan was determined to be the real core that needed to be taken on,
I would love to have seen French and German troops attacking alongside US,
British and Aussie forces.
Somehow we have messed up this defense of the West. i don't see it as solely
the fault of Bush. The French certainly were confrontational when they
probably could have been more effective as concerned but cooperating friends.
The Germans weren't much better....well, we all know how things have played out
among the allies.

It is hard not to question the
administrations judgement under these conditions.

I don't believe there has ever been an administration whose judgements I
haven't questioned; that's part of being a concerned citizen.
I tend to see Bush as like Truman in a number of ways, both in his personality,
his previous political experience, his unexpected ascension to power, the way
the press treats him and especially in the huge and unexpected foreign policy
threats he faces, threats that will not only define his presidency and his
place in history, but will change the direction of US and world history for
decades to come.


Chris Mark

From: Chad Irby cir

(ArtKramr) wrote:

We have men dying every day. Is it worth it?

We have hundreds of innocent Iraqi civilians *not* dying every day, and
a large number of fairly monstrous assholes who are really, most
sincerely dead.

The "men dying every day, is it worth it" mantra is the fraidy cat school of
foreign policy embraced by the isolationist left and locked onto by the news
media. "Another GI dies in attack by Iraqi guerillas" is the lead (following
the mode of the latter Vietnam war) , not "Six enemy die-hards killed in
firefight. One of our servicemen also perished." (the WW2 style of reporting).

That argument essentially urges us to cut and run. If we keep doing that,
especially after we kick ass militarily, we might as well simply abolish our
armed forces, replace the Pentagon with an answering machine saying, "To whom
it may concern: Yes, we really are very, very bad. Everything is our fault.
We surrender and throw ourselves upon your mercy, but don't be too kind to us,
because we deserve to be punished."



Chris Mark

Subject: Embedded
From: ost (Chris Mark)
Date: 10/5/03 10:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: 20031005134124.25523.00000317@

The "men dying every day, is it worth it" mantra is the fraidy cat school of
foreign policy

Unless it is you who are going to die.


That argument essentially urges us to cut and run.

Nobody said cut and run. That is your interpretation alone.

To whom
it may concern: Yes, we really are very, very bad. Everything is our fault.
We surrender and throw ourselves upon your mercy, but don't be too kind to
us,
because we deserve to be punished."

All in your mind. Nobody elses. You just made it all up. The alternative to
thoughtful discussion is not surrender. No one ever said what you just accused
them of saying. Or anything close.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

(ArtKramr) wrote:

From: ost (Chris Mark)

The "men dying every day, is it worth it" mantra is the fraidy cat school of
foreign policy

Unless it is you who are going to die.

Then don't volunteer for military service.

And don't get a job as a tuna fisherman, which is more dangerous than
being a member of the US military in Iraq...

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

"Chris Mark" wrote in message
...
From: artkramr@

Define deep do-do

Not facing a guerilla war. Not facing a hostile population on the verge
of a
national uprising against US presence. Not even close to "another
Vietnam"--not that I ever thought that Vietnam was a "Vietnam."

Hmm. I'm afraid that saying this makes you look like an idiot in my view.
Sorry.

And no sign of the imminent
threat from Iraq.

That is one of Bernard Henri-Levi's key points. He agrees that invading
Iraq
was right morally--to depose an odious dictator, period. But it was wrong
politically and strategically because it took our eyes off the main threat
which is principally to the US, but in the long run to all of Western
civilization. This threat--and it is a very, very serious one--in his
view
emanates from Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, and to a lesser extent from
Yemen.

Maybe.

Now the US is tied up with Iraq, there is no solid allied front against
radical
Islam in the West...and the most violent and devastating attacks against
the
West are building towards their inevitable execution while the West and
its
sole remaining paladin (I *love* that description of the US--especially
coming
from a Frenchman!) squabble among themselves and focus on the wrong
enemy.

It sure would have been nice if the US and Europe (and even Japan,
Thailand and
other Asian nations) could have sat down together and planned out how to
counter this real challenge to our civilization and acted together to
defeat
it. If Pakistan was determined to be the real core that needed to be
taken on,
I would love to have seen French and German troops attacking alongside US,
British and Aussie forces.
Somehow we have messed up this defense of the West.

Yup.

i don't see it as solely
the fault of Bush.

Him, his team, and our very own poodle Mr Blair.

The French certainly were confrontational when they
probably could have been more effective as concerned but cooperating
friends.
The Germans weren't much better....well, we all know how things have
played out
among the allies.

The French and the Germans made the right choice for themselves and for the
world. Sometimes it takes more guts to hold fire until the right target
comes along.

It is hard not to question the
administrations judgement under these conditions.

I don't believe there has ever been an administration whose judgements I
haven't questioned; that's part of being a concerned citizen.
I tend to see Bush as like Truman in a number of ways, both in his
personality,
his previous political experience, his unexpected ascension to power, the
way
the press treats him and especially in the huge and unexpected foreign
policy
threats he faces, threats that will not only define his presidency and his
place in history, but will change the direction of US and world history
for
decades to come.

And threats which are (unlike Truman) often largely of his own making.
Certainly the ongoing casualties in Iraq fall into this last category.

John

From:

The "men dying every day, is it worth it" mantra is the fraidy cat school of
foreign policy

Unless it is you who are going to die.

Well, my grandson served in the 3rd on the charge up. We didn't hear from him
from Feb. 25 until almost the end of May. One of my strongest impressions of
the war was the brief footage of that trooper curled up asleep beside his
vehicle while a sandstorm raged. I was very concerned at the time about how
extended the drive seemed to be and the possibility of a major counter-attack
by the enemy cutting them off (groundless concerns as it turned out). I was
influenced in my thinking by my time assigned to the 3rd in Korea in 1950 with
a TACP. When we went into to the Wonsan area we were told not to worry, just
some final mopping up operations, the NKs were all done, although they still
had some fight in them. Those "mopping up" operations were inflicting hundreds
of casualties on the troops. But that was nothing compared to what happened
when the Chinese poured in and the 3rd began a fighting retreat centered on
Hungnam, which it held with the help of round-the-clock artillery, naval and
air support, and the magnificent cussed stubborness of the dogfaces, who just
refused to be defeated, allowing the largest amphibious evacuation in US
history, getting out more than 100,000 troops, 100,000 civilians, almost 20,000
vehicles and 350,000 tons of equipment and supplies--all the while under
ferocious assault from the Chicoms, amid some of the most bitter cold
imaginable. It was the most memorable and miserable six weeks of my life. I
have rarely had a nightmare about WW2 but I have frequently woken up pouring
sweat, heart pounding, mind totally lost in another reality, from a dream about
Hungnam.
My son-in-law is the battalion commander of a Guard unit that was activated not
long ago, his son--my grandson--serves under him. They are both now in Iraq
working to help establish Iraqi law-enforcement and suppress criminal activity.
We do worry about them.
How about you? Any fruit of your loins participatants in the current dust-up?


Chris Mark