Cheapest Club (was Best Gliding Club Website)

Well, it's true that the club gets a good amount of funds every year
from the mayor of Czestochowa... snip

That's how it looks here... As long as the government / municipality
helps, it works better or worse. When it ends, it will be the end of the
club too.

Regards,


You have displayed great wisdom and insight in your assessment of the
future of soaring in your country. The only problem with being free and
independent is you are free and independant. That's a problem I will
greatfully accept. The lesson here is that we in the US think that
cheap equals best and that if clubs were cheaper we could draw more
members. Look around, the most active clubs with the best equipment
have higher than average dues and flight fees. If it does not cost much
thats most likely what it is worth. In order to maintain our clubs,
increase membership, and preserve soaring, clubs need to take a close
look at the income stream produced by the club activities and make
adjustments as needed to insure thier own future. Amen, pass the plate,
go eat lunch.

Craig-

On 12 Nov 2003 16:40:39 -0800, (Craig
Freeman) wrote:

OK Andreas and Janusz I just gotta know where does the scratch, dough,
frogskins, moolah, change, MONEY come from to purchase all this really,
really nice soaring equipment? Somehow clubs in the Good Ole US of A
don't seem so well stocked with soaring inventory even though by your
standards the dues are outrageously high. Are we comparing apples to
apples here?

Good question, Craig.

First of all, we have no professional staff - anything is done on
voluntary basis. Each active member has a schedule of several weekend
duties per year (winch driver, kitchen, instructor, tow pilot, and so
on) and in the winter the active members do ALL the maintenance of
aircraft, club hous and airfield. This is the main advantage of a club
- it saves a lot of money each year. It helps that we have relatively
many active pilots (85 at the moment including student pilots) -
usually between 20 and 30 pilots are there on a given day.

The advantage of this system is clear I guess - on the other hand, you
cannot schedule a flight for a certain time. An active pilot needs to
stay on the airfield for a major part of the day (at least), and
usually has to share a glider with two to three comrades per day.

Plenty of flying is done during the week where you have a glider for
yourself. This is usually cross-country flying, instructing is only
done by scheduled instructors on the weekend (of course, if you find a
willing instructor, you can have an appointment with him anytime).

Very important was the fact that we've been flying on a military
(French Army) training terrain for which we had to pay nearly no rent.


Since 40 years my club has always tried to buy as modern gliders as
possible (the idea was/is to have at least one top-performance glider
for our competition pilots). If you buy a new glider in Germany, you
get significant tax abatements (in the range of 20 percent iirc), and
we usually kept the glider for about 10-14 years. So far we were
always able to sell the glider for more money than we had to pay for
it when it was new (In case of your G-103 Twin 2, we even earned
18.000 DM more when we sold it for 60.000 DM after 13 years in 1995
-we bought it for 42.000 DM, unfortunately the DG-505 to replace it
cost 130.000), and the purchase of the next (new) glider) cost us only
an additional charge minus tax abatement. This system has been working
very well in the past, but the latest generation of gliders (e.g.
ASW-27) is that much more expensive than its predecessor generation
(ASW-20) that this system is probably not going to work anymore in the
future.

At the moment we have an order for a Duo Discus that is going to
complement our fleet (we need more seats since the club has grown a
lot in the recent 15 years - from 55 to 85 active pilots), but we are
not sure yet if we will be able to pay it (we are still paying back
150.000 EUR for our part of the airfield that we bought in 1999). We
could get the AS-22-2 (ASH-25 prototype) for less than half the price
of the new Duo, but so far we are not sure yet what to do.


On the other hand - these days gliders don't wear out anymore. If
necessary, a re-finishing (we are doing this by ourselves) is cheap
(but lots of work) and then the glider is as new again, so it's likely
that gliders will be kept for a longer time (15-17 years at least) in
the future.

Until now if you needed a glider for a competition/training
course/vacation, you did not have to pay for it - all you needed was
to ask the executive board and show some above-average dedication.


The gliders were usually financed by members' loans (members loan the
money, get a little more interest than they'd get on their check
account, yet this interest is a lot lower than the usual bank's
interest for a credit). On the long run this system has proved to be a
lot more effective than saving the money till it's enough to buy a
glider.

Other incomes of the club are rare - few contributions, a little
excess of competitions we hold. Winch, tow plane and club house are
calculated that they pay their own costs, we don't earn money with
them).

Intersting note:
Until perhaps five, six years ago privately owned gliders were
forbidden in my club. We had the fear that members with a private
glider would dedicate their time rather on their own means than
working for the club. These days we have half a dozen of privately
owned gliders, and most of their owners still work very well for the
club, so I expect that we are going to see more privately owned
gliders in the future.


One important factor is the payment: We have a flat rate for (winch
launched) flying. This flat rate of about 255 EUR covers all the costs
for winch launching and flying time. The benefit is simple: It does
not matter if you are doing one launch or ten, if you fly ten minutes
or 5 hours. Fly as often as you like (as the others let you... lol).

This leads to the fact that there's alwas plenty of activity on the
airfield, even if the weather is not exhilarating. And in the
beginning of the year it's already clear how much money is going to be
earned over the year - bad weather (with little flying) will not
result in a loss of income for the club. A safe base for calculations.

Our primary launch system, the winch, is very cheap to operate and
very reliable, so it doesn't matter if our tow plane, the Robin
Remorqeur, is grounded for a week because of maintenance (we do this
by ourselves - takes longer, but costs nearly nothing).

All our gliders have a full physical damage insurance.



These are some basics.
I guess it's clear that the basis of a successful club is one thing -
companionship.
To us this is so important that we express this in the club's name:

DJK-SegelflugGEMEINSCHAFT Landau.
http://www.djk-landau.de





Bye
Andreas

On 13 Nov 2003 08:52:31 -0800, (Craig
Freeman) wrote:

Look around, the most active clubs with the best equipment
have higher than average dues and flight fees. If it does not cost much
thats most likely what it is worth.

Maybe it's like that in the US, but here in Europe it's definitely the
"bang for the bucks" ratio that counts.

Apart from that, in Germany usually (I'd estimate 95 percent of the
cases) the choice of the glider club to join is based on the people,
not on the equipment.



Bye
Andreas

In article ,
Andreas Maurer wrote:

On the other hand - these days gliders don't wear out anymore. If
necessary, a re-finishing (we are doing this by ourselves) is cheap
(but lots of work) and then the glider is as new again, so it's likely
that gliders will be kept for a longer time (15-17 years at least) in
the future.

You sound positively rich.

Our club owns six gliders: three two seaters, and three single seaters
(all glass). The two PW-5's are only eight years old, but everything
else (2 x Twin Astir, 1 x Janus, 1 x Std Libelle) is 25 or more years
old, though all but the Libelle have been purchased in the last ten
years.

In fact the vast majority of the privately owned gliders (which far
outnumber the club ones) are also more than the 15-17 years old you
mention.

-- Bruce

Andreas Maurer wrote in message . ..
On 13 Nov 2003 08:52:31 -0800, (Craig
Freeman) wrote:

Look around, the most active clubs with the best equipment
have higher than average dues and flight fees. If it does not cost much
thats most likely what it is worth.

Maybe it's like that in the US, but here in Europe it's definitely the
"bang for the bucks" ratio that counts.

Value is always important. Unfortunatly the tendency in too many cases
is to try to operate so cheaply that a club does not have enough money to
make a pop, much less a bang. I am afraid that is commiting suicide for
the club.

Apart from that, in Germany usually (I'd estimate 95 percent of the
cases) the choice of the glider club to join is based on the people,
not on the equipment.

Here clubs are so spread out it is not a choice of which club as there
is usually just one to pick from. However I think that good equipment
and friendly people are equally important. Not to slight the importance
of either but to emphisize both as nessesary qualities of a good club.

Craig-

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 18:22:21 +1300, Bruce Hoult
wrote:

Our club owns six gliders: three two seaters, and three single seaters
(all glass). The two PW-5's are only eight years old, but everything
else (2 x Twin Astir, 1 x Janus, 1 x Std Libelle) is 25 or more years
old, though all but the Libelle have been purchased in the last ten
years.

Hmm... how does your club work (number of members, fees, et cetera)?
maybe we are comparing apples with oranges here....

In fact the vast majority of the privately owned gliders (which far
outnumber the club ones) are also more than the 15-17 years old you
mention.

Indeed - used old gliders offer a lot of little money, but in my
opinion it's not necessarily the best thing for a club to have old
equipment only.

Bye
Andreas

On 14 Nov 2003 07:55:35 -0800, (Craig
Freeman) wrote:

Value is always important. Unfortunatly the tendency in too many cases
is to try to operate so cheaply that a club does not have enough money to
make a pop, much less a bang. I am afraid that is commiting suicide for
the club.

Well... it is certainly possible to operate cheaply and to make enough
money to keep a club alive and healthy, but probably an important role
is the sheer number of members - and this is where Europe, especially
German or England with its dense population has a huge advantage over,
say, the US.
I'm often amazed about the extremely high costs and the comparably
very poor value that is being offered by clubs in the US - maybe this
is a vicious circle.


Here clubs are so spread out it is not a choice of which club as there
is usually just one to pick from. However I think that good equipment
and friendly people are equally important. Not to slight the importance
of either but to emphisize both as nessesary qualities of a good club.

From what I've seen most people here join the first club they visit,
without ever comparing it to other clubs. It's extremely rare that
someone leaves a club (and joins onother one) because he doesn't like
it (which points out how important community is on this side of the
pond).


Bye
Andreas

In article ,
Andreas Maurer wrote:

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 18:22:21 +1300, Bruce Hoult
wrote:

Our club owns six gliders: three two seaters, and three single seaters
(all glass). The two PW-5's are only eight years old, but everything
else (2 x Twin Astir, 1 x Janus, 1 x Std Libelle) is 25 or more years
old, though all but the Libelle have been purchased in the last ten
years.

Hmm... how does your club work (number of members, fees, et cetera)?
maybe we are comparing apples with oranges here....

Membership varies between maybe 80 - 100 depending on the economy.
Annual fees are I think something like US$150 - $200, including a good
chunk that goes to the national organization. Landing charges are about
$7/month/flying member (flat rate). Tows are about $3/min (typically 6
min to 2000 ft for 2 seaters, less for singles). Casual hire of club
gliders is about US$30/hour, less if you pay an extra annual (or
semi-annual) fee, including this year $0/hour if you pay an extra US$500
for the year.


In fact the vast majority of the privately owned gliders (which far
outnumber the club ones) are also more than the 15-17 years old you
mention.

Indeed - used old gliders offer a lot of little money, but in my
opinion it's not necessarily the best thing for a club to have old
equipment only.

Hey, we only just got rid of the last of the Blaniks!

I'm sure we'd love to have a fleet of new equipment, but that would cost
money that we don't have, or require reducing the size of the fleet.
I've heard talk recently of selling the Janus and one of the Grobs in
order to put the money towards a new DG 1000. It wouldn't be enough
money, of course, and would leave us with less capacity, though perhaps
better utilization.

-- Bruce

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 09:29:50 +1300, Bruce Hoult
wrote:

Membership varies between maybe 80 - 100 depending on the economy.
Are these active pilots?

Annual fees are I think something like US$150 - $200, including a good
chunk that goes to the national organization. Landing charges are about
$7/month/flying member (flat rate). Tows are about $3/min (typically 6
min to 2000 ft for 2 seaters, less for singles). Casual hire of club
gliders is about US$30/hour, less if you pay an extra annual (or
semi-annual) fee, including this year $0/hour if you pay an extra US$500
for the year.

Hmm.. looks pretty expensive to me I have to admit, but I guess it's
normal niveau for the US. How many hours do the club's gliders fly per
year? What special expenses does your club have to pay (tow plane
maintenance, instructor fees, aifield maintenance, insurances, etc.)?
Many owners of private aircraft wo seldom fly the club's aircraft?
How many student pilots?

I know.. a lot of questions..

I'm sure we'd love to have a fleet of new equipment, but that would cost
money that we don't have, or require reducing the size of the fleet.
I've heard talk recently of selling the Janus and one of the Grobs in
order to put the money towards a new DG 1000. It wouldn't be enough
money, of course, and would leave us with less capacity, though perhaps
better utilization.

Well... to be honest, the difference between our "old" G-103 and the
"new" DG-505 was not that great. The cause why we usually buy new
gliders was and is simply that with our medium-term financing a new
glider is as expensive as a used one. It's more important to have a
sufficient number of seats than to have a glider with 7 points better
L/D.


Bye
Andreas

In article ,
Andreas Maurer wrote:

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 09:29:50 +1300, Bruce Hoult
wrote:

Membership varies between maybe 80 - 100 depending on the economy.
Are these active pilots?

Some of course are not that active.

So far this spring the most gliders I've seen in the air at once is 13,
with the tow plane sitting doing nothing once they were all lanched.


Annual fees are I think something like US$150 - $200, including a good
chunk that goes to the national organization. Landing charges are about
$7/month/flying member (flat rate). Tows are about $3/min (typically 6
min to 2000 ft for 2 seaters, less for singles). Casual hire of club
gliders is about US$30/hour, less if you pay an extra annual (or
semi-annual) fee, including this year $0/hour if you pay an extra US$500
for the year.

Hmm.. looks pretty expensive to me I have to admit, but I guess it's
normal niveau for the US.

This is in New Zealand. I haven't flown many places in the US, but they
have generally been much more expensive (except, possibly, for tows),
and have usually had worse equipment (e.g. 2-33s). The Chicago Gliding
Club is I think the only exception I've seen, but I'm pretty sure it's
unusual for the US.


I'm sure we'd love to have a fleet of new equipment, but that would cost
money that we don't have, or require reducing the size of the fleet.
I've heard talk recently of selling the Janus and one of the Grobs in
order to put the money towards a new DG 1000. It wouldn't be enough
money, of course, and would leave us with less capacity, though perhaps
better utilization.

Well... to be honest, the difference between our "old" G-103 and the
"new" DG-505 was not that great. The cause why we usually buy new
gliders was and is simply that with our medium-term financing a new
glider is as expensive as a used one. It's more important to have a
sufficient number of seats than to have a glider with 7 points better
L/D.

I agree and I would not support the above proposal. While it might be
nice to replace the Janus with a DG1000 (or Duo Discus), as far as I can
tell there is almost zero performance difference, with only the
"handling" being better. I think the Janus is just fine, but perhaps it
would be more useful as a trainer with some small modifications, such as
a nose hook. Reducing the number of available seats would be I think
silly.

-- Bruce