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#1
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Refinishing: Who has tried a shortcut?
Hello All
There has been quite a bit on refinishing on RAS recently. Most people advocate that when gel-coat starts cracking up, it is essential to remove it ALL. Does anybody out their own a ship which was refinished without removing all the gel-coat? What is the service history of these gliders? If the RAS collective are right on this, I suspect that there will be a number of hard luck stories out there from people who have discovered this the hard way. Personally, I know of many ships that have been resprayed. I suspect many of them were not sanded down to glass and those that I see around don't look too shabby. I can't help feeling that there is another side to this story. I used to own a share in Nimbus II that was resprayed with poly urethane paint (Glasflurit "Durothane K" they claimed) by the previous owner. I don't know what condition the gel was prior to painting, or how much gel was removed. There was no obvious sign of a primer layer under the paint either. However, I had it for 10 years and the poly finish was perfect when I sold. The only problem we had with it was doing minor repairs. It was very difficult to re-spray a small area without a visible brownish "water mark" where the new and old paint met. But we just lived with a few water marks. We used to polish the finish with a "liquid polymer" car polish. (Why not, car polish on car paint, works on hundreds of thousands of cars ..) Can't say we had a problems from that, except that I suspect it may be have had something to do with the water marks. For small dings we filled with body filler and/or high build poly urethane primer, then resprayed with aerosol lacker. After sanding and polishing, the results were pretty neat. For bigger repairs we masked off and resprayed an entire "panel" with the original poly urethane, primer and top coat. After my experiences I would never pay anybody to refinish a glider with gel coat. If I ever bought a new glider, and I had a choice, I would order a urethane finish. Now I have bought a share in an LS3a that has the original gel coat finish over most of the surface. We keep it polished with a "silicon free" glazing wax. But it is pretty cracked up and I am wondering how it is going to become a urethane finish. Who has been down this road before and tried a "short cut"? Regards Ian |
#2
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Użytkownik Ian Forbes w wiadomooci do grup dyskusyjnych ... I used to own a share in Nimbus II that was resprayed with poly urethane paint (Glasflurit "Durothane K" they claimed) by the previous owner. I don't know what condition the gel was prior to painting, or how much gel was removed. There was no obvious sign of a primer layer under the paint either. Maybe it has been painted with polyurethane paint since new? Most of German gliders some painted with gelcoat as a standard, but I think the polyurethane paint is an option avaivalble after paying some dollars more. Almost all (if not all) SZD glass gliders and their late wooden designs were painted with polyurethatne as a standard fit when leaving the production hall. However, I had it for 10 years and the poly finish was perfect when I sold. The only problem we had with it was doing minor repairs. It was very difficult to re-spray a small area without a visible brownish "water mark" where the new and old paint met. But we just lived with a few water marks. The paint You use, is fresh, new, etc. and the paint layer which has been laid few years ago is just "old" due to sun, dust, and anything else with what has it been in contact since painting. They're just different because of age, and even if You have the same paint (the same catalogue No.) effect most likely will be different in any case. Regards, -- Janusz Kesik visit www.leszno.pl - home of the www.css-leszno.it.pl |
#3
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Janusz Kesik wrote:
I used to own a share in Nimbus II that was resprayed with poly Maybe it has been painted with polyurethane paint since new? No, it was painted by the previous owner. Much of the manual work was done by his son and his son's friend. I spoke to the friend about this, that is how I know it was "Durathane K". The only problem we had with it was doing minor repairs. It was very difficult to re-spray a small area without a visible brownish "water mark" where the new and old paint met. But we just lived with a few water marks. The paint You use, is fresh, new, etc. and the paint layer which has been laid few years ago is just "old" due to sun, dust, and anything else with what has it been in contact since painting. They're just different because of age, and even if You have the same paint (the same catalogue No.) effect most likely will be different in any case. The effect was cosmetic, and not readily visible, but annoying because no amount of effort seemed to get rid of it. I found that sanding the adjacent area with 1200 wet and dry prior to spraying seemed to help prevent the mark, but it was always there to a greater or lesser extent. (Just like cracks in gel coat - they are always present, just the extent varies!) Car panel beaters always spray an entire mudguard, door, bonnet etc to avoid this problem. Ian |
#4
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Refinish of Ventus b wings.
The only short cut I found was to uses very heavy grit paper to remove the gel coat. I used 60 grit with a 7" rotary variable speed sander. As I got close to the fabric I changed to 80 grit. Be carefully you don't sand into the fabric. I can also recommend that when you profile your wings make sure you roll or spray on enough surfacer, so you don't have to do it twice. I also recommend using at least a 3' or 4' long aluminum extrusion to profile the wings. Use adhesive paper or spray on adhesive. Make sure it is flat. I intially used 80 grit to profile. The second time I used 200. Then sprayed DCC acrylic urethane. So far I have 172 hours into the project. But it finally looks shiney. Estimate about 25 hours left to wet sand polish and assemble the flaps & ailerons. Richard www.craggyaero.com "Ian Forbes" wrote in message ... Janusz Kesik wrote: I used to own a share in Nimbus II that was resprayed with poly Maybe it has been painted with polyurethane paint since new? No, it was painted by the previous owner. Much of the manual work was done by his son and his son's friend. I spoke to the friend about this, that is how I know it was "Durathane K". The only problem we had with it was doing minor repairs. It was very difficult to re-spray a small area without a visible brownish "water mark" where the new and old paint met. But we just lived with a few water marks. The paint You use, is fresh, new, etc. and the paint layer which has been laid few years ago is just "old" due to sun, dust, and anything else with what has it been in contact since painting. They're just different because of age, and even if You have the same paint (the same catalogue No.) effect most likely will be different in any case. The effect was cosmetic, and not readily visible, but annoying because no amount of effort seemed to get rid of it. I found that sanding the adjacent area with 1200 wet and dry prior to spraying seemed to help prevent the mark, but it was always there to a greater or lesser extent. (Just like cracks in gel coat - they are always present, just the extent varies!) Car panel beaters always spray an entire mudguard, door, bonnet etc to avoid this problem. Ian |
#5
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A previous owner of my ASW17 refinished the glider
in two pack acrylic. I was necessary to remove all the gel coat before this was done and reprofile where necessary. The gelcoat provided some of the profiling. It is much easier to maintain than gelcoat and is not as susceptible to cracking, so far. I owned a Kestrel previously and we thought about stripping off the gel and putting acrylic on that. Two reasons for not doing it, firstly the gelcoat on the Kestrel was bomb proof and the wings would have needed an awful lot of profiling work we thought. Also sanding off gelcoat is not the most health concious thing you can do. I have seen gliders which have been re-gelled in Poland and the cost is about the same as stripping down and painting with acrylic, it is just a question of durability. At 14:00 16 December 2003, Richard Pfiffner wrote: Refinish of Ventus b wings. The only short cut I found was to uses very heavy grit paper to remove the gel coat. I used 60 grit with a 7' rotary variable speed sander. As I got close to the fabric I changed to 80 grit. Be carefully you don't sand into the fabric. I can also recommend that when you profile your wings make sure you roll or spray on enough surfacer, so you don't have to do it twice. I also recommend using at least a 3' or 4' long aluminum extrusion to profile the wings. Use adhesive paper or spray on adhesive. Make sure it is flat. I intially used 80 grit to profile. The second time I used 200. Then sprayed DCC acrylic urethane. So far I have 172 hours into the project. But it finally looks shiney. Estimate about 25 hours left to wet sand polish and assemble the flaps & ailerons. Richard www.craggyaero.com 'Ian Forbes' wrote in message ... Janusz Kesik wrote: I used to own a share in Nimbus II that was resprayed with poly Maybe it has been painted with polyurethane paint since new? No, it was painted by the previous owner. Much of the manual work was done by his son and his son's friend. I spoke to the friend about this, that is how I know it was 'Durathane K'. The only problem we had with it was doing minor repairs. It was very difficult to re-spray a small area without a visible brownish 'water mark' where the new and old paint met. But we just lived with a few water marks. The paint You use, is fresh, new, etc. and the paint layer which has been laid few years ago is just 'old' due to sun, dust, and anything else with what has it been in contact since painting. They're just different because of age, and even if You have the same paint (the same catalogue No.) effect most likely will be different in any case. The effect was cosmetic, and not readily visible, but annoying because no amount of effort seemed to get rid of it. I found that sanding the adjacent area with 1200 wet and dry prior to spraying seemed to help prevent the mark, but it was always there to a greater or lesser extent. (Just like cracks in gel coat - they are always present, just the extent varies!) Car panel beaters always spray an entire mudguard, door, bonnet etc to avoid this problem. Ian |
#6
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Just got a quote on a Ventus Bt = 6900 Euro. Strip, reprofile and refinish
in acrylic, reseal controls including tape rebate routing, refurbish cockpit including new carpets and trims and instrument panel respray, repaint competition and registration marks and numbers. New weight and balance sheet. Ian |
#7
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Ian,
Where did you get this quote and what is the contact e-mail or web site or phone number? Thanks, Ray At 16:54 16 December 2003, Tango4 wrote: Just got a quote on a Ventus Bt = 6900 Euro. Strip, reprofile and refinish in acrylic, reseal controls including tape rebate routing, refurbish cockpit including new carpets and trims and instrument panel respray, repaint competition and registration marks and numbers. New weight and balance sheet. Ian |
#8
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We have a Pegasus here that was resprayed over the old gel coat. I
don't know much about how it was done as it was not done locally. What I can tell you is that nearly every single one of the old cracks in the gelcoat are now showing through the new finish. It probably looked good when it was originally done but apparently didn't last very long. Brian Ian Forbes wrote in message ... Hello All There has been quite a bit on refinishing on RAS recently. Most people advocate that when gel-coat starts cracking up, it is essential to remove it ALL. Does anybody out their own a ship which was refinished without removing all the gel-coat? What is the service history of these gliders? If the RAS collective are right on this, I suspect that there will be a number of hard luck stories out there from people who have discovered this the hard way. snip |
#9
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Brian Case wrote:
We have a Pegasus here that was resprayed over the old gel coat. I don't know much about how it was done as it was not done locally. What I can tell you is that nearly every single one of the old cracks in the gelcoat are now showing through the new finish. Do you know what was used for the new finish? Is it gel-coat or 2 part polyurathane paint? If it is paint, what kind of primer went on underneath it? Ian |
#10
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DG are now advocating the use of Polyurethane Paint, see the article on the
DG Web-site http://www.dgflugzeugbau.de/index-e.html , go to "Innovations" then under "Comfort:" click on "Polyurethane Paint - The Better Alternative". The former owner of your ASW17 has also refinished an LS4 in the same way. W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.). Remove "ic" to reply. "Don Johnstone" wrote in message ... A previous owner of my ASW17 refinished the glider in two pack acrylic. I was necessary to remove all the gel coat before this was done and reprofile where necessary. The gelcoat provided some of the profiling. It is much easier to maintain than gelcoat and is not as susceptible to cracking, so far. I owned a Kestrel previously and we thought about stripping off the gel and putting acrylic on that. Two reasons for not doing it, firstly the gelcoat on the Kestrel was bomb proof and the wings would have needed an awful lot of profiling work we thought. Also sanding off gelcoat is not the most health conscious thing you can do. I have seen gliders which have been re-gelled in Poland and the cost is about the same as stripping down and painting with acrylic, it is just a question of durability. |
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