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#21
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Abrupt Controller
Peter Clark wrote:
On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 15:43:02 -0500, "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote: Peter Clark wrote: I seem to recall that ATC isn't responsible for not correcting mis-heard readbacks so don't count on that, ever. Not so. Controllers are still responsible to insure readbacks are correct. That was never changed and never even proposed to be changed. It was widely misreported. Hm, OK, thanks. What I seem to remember is someone who got violated for doing something that they read back incorrectly and used "but the controller didn't fix the readback" as part of the defense and still had the violation upheld as it wasn't ATC's issue if they didn't correct an incorrect readback. Wouldn't be the first time I misremembered somethin tho. It happened a little differently. Aircraft A requested a different altitude. ATC assigns different altitude to aircraft A. Aircraft A and aircraft B read back altitude issued to aircraft A. Controller hears only loud squeal, asks aircraft A to say again. Loss of separation occurs between aircraft B and aircraft C. Aircraft B is violated for taking a clearance issued to another aircraft. Aircraft B's defense is the uncorrected readback, a readback that was never heard or acknowledged by ATC because it was blocked by aircraft A's readback. |
#22
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Abrupt Controller
Viperdoc wrote:
Anthony, there you go again spouting and pontificating about topics where you have absolutely no knowedge or experience other than playing your computer game. And, he also plays with himself. |
#23
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Abrupt Controller
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
m... Peter Clark wrote: On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 15:43:02 -0500, "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote: Peter Clark wrote: I seem to recall that ATC isn't responsible for not correcting mis-heard readbacks so don't count on that, ever. Not so. Controllers are still responsible to insure readbacks are correct. That was never changed and never even proposed to be changed. It was widely misreported. Hm, OK, thanks. What I seem to remember is someone who got violated for doing something that they read back incorrectly and used "but the controller didn't fix the readback" as part of the defense and still had the violation upheld as it wasn't ATC's issue if they didn't correct an incorrect readback. Wouldn't be the first time I misremembered somethin tho. It happened a little differently. Aircraft A requested a different altitude. ATC assigns different altitude to aircraft A. Aircraft A and aircraft B read back altitude issued to aircraft A. Controller hears only loud squeal, asks aircraft A to say again. Loss of separation occurs between aircraft B and aircraft C. Aircraft B is violated for taking a clearance issued to another aircraft. Aircraft B's defense is the uncorrected readback, a readback that was never heard or acknowledged by ATC because it was blocked by aircraft A's readback. I read an ALJ's decision where a pilot got violated even though his readback error was not caught. The controller was charged with an error as well. This is no doubt the exception as usually the controller buys the error exclusively. |
#24
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Abrupt Controller
Kobra wrote:
Flyers, I'll run this scenario past the group and see what you all think and is if Mr. McNicoll can shed some light as well. First, some quick background. At my airport if you are IFR and are heading, say, southwest (as I was) it's too bad...you're clearance is to send you 22 miles north to a fix and then 15 mile east to another fix and then they will turn you on course. Usually, if asked, you can get direct on course shortly after take-off. If traffic permits they will clear you to go direct to your first filed fix on course. Ok so...I took-off on an IFR flight plan and I had just leveled off at 4000' north bound for their fix. Next they gave me a vector of 090. After a minute or so I asked the controller, "McGuire Approach, Cardinal 07G, any chance direct Smyrna (ENO)?" The response I got was, "07G direct Smyrna The usual way to say this is "unable direct" or "unable direct Smyrna". Your readback of the whole instruction should have tipped him off, since there was no real reason to read back what he basically read back to you, but with "unable" at the front. unable." Ok...that would be fine if that was what my busy brain heard, but I did not hear it that way...my brain heard, "07G direct Smyrna 'when able'." Shortly after I turned direct for ENO I got a VERY large lecture with unneeded and unnecessary attitude. "07G I TOLD YOU STAY 090. CAN'T YOU LISTEN OR UNDERSTAND ATC INSTRUCTIONS? WHEN I GIVE YOU A VECTOR YOU ARE TO FOLLOW IT EXACTLY AND CAREFULLY!!" When I explained to him that I heard him say, "...direct ENO when able." he became even more belligerent. "I DID *NOT* SAY THAT!! YOU NEED TO LISTEN TO ATC INSTRUCTION MORE CAREFULLY AND FOLLOW MY INSTRUCTION EXACTLY." I have had several controllers go off on me like that, and even went through the motions of complaining, getting the tape read back, etc. Why waste your time and energy. There was a misunderstanding. It wasn't personal. In 5 minutes you will be talking to someone else, and if it is *really* bad (a voilation), you don't want to be recorded as being belligerent. |
#25
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Abrupt Controller
Mike wrote:
I read an ALJ's decision where a pilot got violated Speaking of questionable phraseology. Who is "violating" all these pilots. And what is the manner in which they are "violated". sounds painful -- Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com |
#26
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Abrupt Controller
"Kloudy via AviationKB.com" u33403@uwe wrote in message
news:88f9980d2063f@uwe... Mike wrote: I read an ALJ's decision where a pilot got violated Speaking of questionable phraseology. Who is "violating" all these pilots. And what is the manner in which they are "violated". sounds painful Nobody does for phraseology. |
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