When does IFR begin in VFR?

Wow!
1) You are not "IFR" in controlled airspace (anything but G) until you
are told "Cleared to somewhere".
2) You must tell ATC "I'd like to pick up my IFR". They will not simply
give it to you when you call up. Most likely its not even in front of
them.
3) If you were "IFR" you CANNOT change your altitude w/o ATC oking it.
4) You said it was "VFR". There really is no such thing. It can be
"VMC" or "VFR conditions" but VFR is a set of regulatory requirements,
not weather.

So, you can be IFR in VMC, IFR in IMC or VFR in VMC. I wouldn't
recommend VFR in IMC though.

-Robert, CFI

True, but the "magic" for IFR students to listen to is the "cleared
to". The rest could happen when VFR. A lot of students have a hard time
understanding the difference between radar services for instrument
approaches (practice approaches) and IFR approaches. Its easier to
train students to listen for the magic "cleared to " (the smart guys
will ask, "What about 'cleared to Land'").

BTW: Ron, will I see you in Mexico weekend after next with the rest of
us in the Mooney group? We're going down to pet grey whales.

-Robert, CFI

That was my impression as well. He called ATC, they have him a code.
However, there was no indication that the controller knew he was
interested in an IFR clearance.

On 2/11/05 2:34 PM, in article
, "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:

Wow!
1) You are not "IFR" in controlled airspace (anything but G) until you
are told "Cleared to somewhere".
2) You must tell ATC "I'd like to pick up my IFR". They will not simply
give it to you when you call up. Most likely its not even in front of
them.
3) If you were "IFR" you CANNOT change your altitude w/o ATC oking it.
4) You said it was "VFR". There really is no such thing. It can be
"VMC" or "VFR conditions" but VFR is a set of regulatory requirements,
not weather.

So, you can be IFR in VMC, IFR in IMC or VFR in VMC. I wouldn't
recommend VFR in IMC though.

-Robert, CFI

Thanks Robert.

Please keep in mind that, when I post anyway, I'm going to use a shorthand
version of events to relay the situation. It appears that you and the rest
of the posters understood my meaning when I said I was and it was, VFR. It
may get under your skin, but I'd rather save my time and fingers for drawing
instead of typing more than I really need to.

The controller had spoken to me on the ground only a few minutes before, so
he was expecting me and my IFR plan. My call up to him in the air included
"ready to copy IFR". I assume that was why he came back with a IFR code.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

Wizard of Draws wrote:


The controller had spoken to me on the ground only a few minutes before, so
he was expecting me and my IFR plan. My call up to him in the air included
"ready to copy IFR". I assume that was why he came back with a IFR code.

Presumably it wasn't the same guy. The ground controller knows you want
to be IFR. He attaches two strips to the strip holder. Your VFR strip
is half the length of an IFR one. You IFR strip is full size. They
both go into the holder. When you depart both strips get dropped to the
radar controller. That way he knows you want to be IFR. Very simple.

On 2/12/05 11:07 AM, in article , "Newps"
wrote:



Wizard of Draws wrote:


The controller had spoken to me on the ground only a few minutes before, so
he was expecting me and my IFR plan. My call up to him in the air included
"ready to copy IFR". I assume that was why he came back with a IFR code.

Presumably it wasn't the same guy. The ground controller knows you want
to be IFR. He attaches two strips to the strip holder. Your VFR strip
is half the length of an IFR one. You IFR strip is full size. They
both go into the holder. When you depart both strips get dropped to the
radar controller. That way he knows you want to be IFR. Very simple.

It was the same guy, same frequency: Atlanta Approach on 121.0. I've talked
enough to him to recognize the voice. I'm not sure why I would have had a
VFR strip. I was departing an uncontrolled field.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

You were a VFR popup first. So even though the code doesn't change what
you did was a two count for ATC. We like guys like that.



Wizard of Draws wrote:
On 2/12/05 11:07 AM, in article , "Newps"
wrote:



Wizard of Draws wrote:


The controller had spoken to me on the ground only a few minutes before, so
he was expecting me and my IFR plan. My call up to him in the air included
"ready to copy IFR". I assume that was why he came back with a IFR code.

Presumably it wasn't the same guy. The ground controller knows you want
to be IFR. He attaches two strips to the strip holder. Your VFR strip
is half the length of an IFR one. You IFR strip is full size. They
both go into the holder. When you depart both strips get dropped to the
radar controller. That way he knows you want to be IFR. Very simple.


It was the same guy, same frequency: Atlanta Approach on 121.0. I've talked
enough to him to recognize the voice. I'm not sure why I would have had a
VFR strip. I was departing an uncontrolled field.

On 2/12/05 1:33 PM, in article , "Newps"
wrote:

You were a VFR popup first. So even though the code doesn't change what
you did was a two count for ATC. We like guys like that.


Not sure what you mean, but if you can explain and help me make it easier on
you guys, I'm all ears.

Did he put me in the system as a VFR flight, assign me a code, even though I
was still on the ground and couldn't be sure that I would make it into the
air to utilize it? Why would I be a popup when I was expected?

By two count, you mean I counted as two separate duties for his workload
assignment?
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

When you called you were VFR. That's a one count. Then you were radar
identified and given a clearance. That's another one count. Had you
departed the field IFR you would only have been a one count because you
were never VFR. It's really neither here nor there from a pilots
perspective. He did not put you in the system as a VFR aircraft. He
wrote a VFR strip on you and then immediately filed it. He gave you the
transponder code off your IFR flight plan. Every facility counts their
traffic. The more traffic count the more you get paid. There's a lot
of scams and this one is borderline. Even though he wouldn't have done
anything different what you did counted as two. One of the greatest
scams is one of the centers, Cleveland or Indy I think, lets two
adjacent centers run airplanes that just barely nick their airspace and
has a letter of agreement set up so they don't have to talk to the plane.

Wizard of Draws wrote:
On 2/12/05 1:33 PM, in article , "Newps"
wrote:


You were a VFR popup first. So even though the code doesn't change what
you did was a two count for ATC. We like guys like that.



Not sure what you mean, but if you can explain and help me make it easier on
you guys, I'm all ears.

Did he put me in the system as a VFR flight, assign me a code, even though I
was still on the ground and couldn't be sure that I would make it into the
air to utilize it? Why would I be a popup when I was expected?

By two count, you mean I counted as two separate duties for his workload
assignment?

I think Jose is on to something. They scoffed at Gallileo at first too.
Illigitimi non carborundum est

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Jose" wrote in message
m...

Addition and multplication are the same. 2+2 = 2x2 QED.


Try it with a number other than 2.



Lemma: exponentiation is the same too. 2^2 = 2x2 = 2+2. BFD.


Let's get your basic arithmetic up to speed before we move on.



And zeros have a big effect on addition. 20+2 is not the same as 2+2,
and
the only difference is that piddly zero.


20 is not the same as 2.