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#1
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Landing on Tow - YouTube link.
This was discussed here recently. JS was kind enough to drop by Jean
and share his experience with the instructors of the LVVSA. Here's a link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT_IkCb4Tzk |
#2
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Landing on Tow - YouTube link.
I wonder how this would go in a Nimbus 4D? Any opinions? ;
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#3
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Landing on Tow - YouTube link.
On Nov 10, 1:31*am, Bob wrote:
I wonder how this would go in a Nimbus 4D? Any opinions? ; You'd have to approach with the airbrakes out to keep from over- running the towplane. |
#4
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Landing on Tow - YouTube link.
I have to take umbrage at practicing something that is such an
incredibly rare event. I have never even heard of a single tow rope release failure (but I am sure that they have happened) let alone a double release failure. Practicing slack rope and rope break (basically a single failure) recoveries is important. But we simulate these at a decent altitude which allows time and height to recover in case of something going badly. Practicing what this video shows invites trying to recover at the worse possible time - just a few feet above the ground. Would you practice a much-more-likely-to-occur spin ... but at 100 feet? Anyone know of a real life double release failure? My $1.99. - John DeRosa |
#5
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Landing on Tow - YouTube link.
On Nov 10, 9:36*am, ContestID67 wrote:
I have to take umbrage at practicing something that is such an incredibly rare event. I have never even heard of a single tow rope release failure (but I am sure that they have happened) let alone a double release failure. Practicing slack rope and rope break (basically a single failure) recoveries is important. *But we simulate these at a decent altitude which allows time and height to recover in case of something going badly. *Practicing what this video shows invites trying to recover at the worse possible time - just a few feet above the ground. *Would you practice a much-more-likely-to-occur spin ... but at 100 feet? Anyone know of a real life double release failure? My $1.99. - John DeRosa I have NOT had a double release failure but I have had a single, at the glider end, in a SGS 2-33. We were never able to duplicate or determine the cause. Hasn't happened again. The glider had a Schweizer release as did the tow-plane. Our club has done significant testing on release forces for both TOST and Schweizer hook systems (we have tow-planes with both) at various angles and loads. I'll see if we have details and reports that can be shared here. I'm sure it will be interesting to all. But back to topic; I agree that it seems incredibly rare, the question is: Does practicing something potentially dangerous present a greater danger than the actual event? This is the premise behind the avoidance of spin training in the US as well as the virtual ban on practicing single engine failures (of twin-engined aircraft) on liftoff. A discussion of the options and developing a good understanding of the elements of the process may be the safest approach. As a pilot of many hours I have experienced several "eventualities" including failed engines in various stages of flight and extreme icing. We don't really train to specific circumstances but rather to the understanding of principles surrounding a situation. With an understanding of those principles and some basic intelligence most pilots can chose a reasonable course of action. I know that most accidents fly in the face of the previous statement, however the crux of the statement is "an understanding of those principles". I'm a full-time flight instructor and teach international students as well as US pilots in SEL, MEL and gliders. I've been doing it for 15 years and have worked with close to a thousand individuals. I have seen that in most cases individual try to learn "just enough". It is a very rare individual that digs into the library of materials I offer or even researchs the web pages that are available. In defense of gliders pilots: they seem to be more interested, as a group, in gaining knowledge for knowledges sake and thus are better at understanding the principles. Rather that rattle on longer. Summary: teach the principles, practice in safe scenarios, review frequently. |
#6
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Landing on Tow - YouTube link.
ContestID67 wrote:
I have to take umbrage at practicing something that is such an incredibly rare event. I have never even heard of a single tow rope release failure (but I am sure that they have happened) let alone a double release failure. Practicing slack rope and rope break (basically a single failure) recoveries is important. But we simulate these at a decent altitude which allows time and height to recover in case of something going badly. Practicing what this video shows invites trying to recover at the worse possible time - just a few feet above the ground. Would you practice a much-more-likely-to-occur spin ... but at 100 feet? Anyone know of a real life double release failure? My $1.99. - John DeRosa I think practicing this is pretty darn stupid, why risk a collision between two perfectly fine aircrafts during decent and ground roll ? The risk of a slippery glass glider catching up with the towplane during decent is simply not worth it. Better things to practice that have a much higher probability includes; tow plane power loss (at safe height, do wing rocking - glider pilot should react correctly, i.e release), spin entry/recovery, air brake deployment during tow at safe height, landing with full airbrakes deployed and of course, procedures for rope break at various heights, etc etc Being an instructor myself, I had a very interesting ride with a (talented) student when I pulled the release handle to simulate rope brake at around 330ft/110m in strong straight side-wind (i.e. 90 degrees from takeoff direction). The student turned around to land downwind, which was OK. But he turned the wrong way since he didn't turn into the wind. Since we were practising at a very large airfield I let him continue and he corrected his position before landing since he was well off the centerline once the turn was finished. The student realized his mistake at an early stage but did the right thing and continued the turn instead of consuming height trying to reverse the turn. This particular student will NEVER do this mistake again since he got to experience what happens when doing it the wrong way. An example of practicing a probable scenario that at a fairly low risk gives much in return for the student. Double release failure ?! Bah ! /AndersP |
#7
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Landing on Tow - YouTube link.
On Nov 10, 12:31*am, Bob wrote:
I wonder how this would go in a Nimbus 4D? Any opinions? ; In a 2C it would be terrifying. A 4D has to be worse. I also note the Pawnee was making a low, power-on approach which had it below the power-off glide path to the runway - something most light airplane pilots are taught not to do. Lets talk about an alternative procedure with a typical glider like a G103. The 103 POH specifies max weak link as 1662 Lbs and the max weight as 1278. 1662/1278 = a 1.3 G momentary jerk that would be required to break the link. Open the spoilers with slack in the tow rope and 1.3G is easy to achieve. Of course, the glider might be flown lighter if solo which could have a flying weight as low as 992 Pounds. 1662/992 = 1.7G - still easy to achieve with a little slack and spoiler. 103's are just as likely to be flown over gross weight in many clubs. Also many operations sue an old, worn piece of rope as a weak link that is likely to be weaker than 1662 Lbs. I'm convinced just breaking the weak link is the safer procedure in the extremely unlikely case of a double release failure. It can't be hard - students do it all the time. |
#8
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Landing on Tow - YouTube link.
I'm convinced just breaking the weak link is the safer procedure in the extremely unlikely case of a double release failure. *It can't be hard - students do it all the time. When this subject last came up some time ago, we had an informal poll at our club of a mix of experienced cross-country and aerobatic pilots and every one said they would opt for breaking the weak link at altitude rather than try an on-tow landing. Not one of us thought that trying a coordinated landing would be safer than breaking the link. Not one! Yet some seem to believe that we should train low-time students to do this maneouver. Why? Mike |
#9
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Landing on Tow - YouTube link.
In message , AndersP
writes snip The risk of a slippery glass glider catching up with the towplane during decent is simply not worth it. Snip Opening the airbrakes works very well at stopping the glider catching up the towplane... Descending on tow (though not all the way down) was one of the things I had to do on my final flight before going solo. -- Surfer! |
#10
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Landing on Tow - YouTube link.
On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 11:48:59 -0800 (PST), bildan
wrote: On Nov 10, 12:31*am, Bob wrote: I wonder how this would go in a Nimbus 4D? Any opinions? ; In a 2C it would be terrifying. A 4D has to be worse. Add the Schleicher open class gliders to that list. I'm convinced just breaking the weak link is the safer procedure in the extremely unlikely case of a double release failure. It can't be hard - students do it all the time. Basically a good idea... but... .... unfortunately there are many gliding operations which do not use weak links at all - especially in the French Alps where the area in the vicinity of the airport is unlandable and a weak link break would result in the certain destruction of the glider. |
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