Standard Cirrus

On Mar 16, 7:55*pm, Walt Connelly Walt.Connelly.
wrote:
Okay folks, your thoughts on the Standard Cirrus? *Good, bad
indifferent? *Flying tail, pros and cons? *I am new to gliding,
Commercial Add on, 140 flights and approx 100 hours, mostly in 1-34.
Would this be a reasonable next step?

Walt

--
Walt Connelly

Like the other I loved the little Cirri. The one thing not mentioned
is your crew will love it too. Until I got my Ventus 2 my crew always
told me all my other gliders were never as nice as the Std. Cirrus.
The wings are light and it is easy to rig if you do it right (wrong
and it will not go together).

I put about 500 hours and many flights over 500k on serial number 17.
Still one of my favorite gliders. Watch the speed control on final
and learn to slip and they can be put in to about any field. A few
knots makes a big difference on float, I found 48 on short final
worked very well to get it down where you wanted, 55 knots and it
would float forever.

For more detailed info, suggest look at the Std Cirrus website, and
join the message board of same if the answers you seek are not
apparent.

http://www.standardcirrus.org/

Aerodyne

The all-moving tailplane, a feature of many designs of that period due to
its theoretically higher efficiency, caused less than desirable high-speed
stability characteristics, and so modifications were made to the early
design. Even so, the glider is still very sensitive in pitch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schempp...tandard_Cirrus

On Mar 17, 2:55*pm, Walt Connelly Walt.Connelly.
wrote:
Okay folks, your thoughts on the Standard Cirrus? *Good, bad
indifferent? *Flying tail, pros and cons? *I am new to gliding,
Commercial Add on, 140 flights and approx 100 hours, mostly in 1-34.
Would this be a reasonable next step?

They are still an excellent glider. There are many here in NZ and from
time to time an up and coming pilot gives the modern standard class
ships a fright in one.

I think it would be a useful thing to have a flight or two in an
original model Janus before flying the Cirrus, if there is one nearby.
It's the two seater that is the most similar, although keep in mind
that the Cirrus has better handling.

On 3/16/2011 6:55 PM, Walt Connelly wrote:
Okay folks, your thoughts on the Standard Cirrus? Good, bad
indifferent? Flying tail, pros and cons? I am new to gliding,
Commercial Add on, 140 flights and approx 100 hours, mostly in 1-34.
Would this be a reasonable next step?

I did transition to a Std Cirrus with about your experience, and I
enjoyed flying it, but sold it in two years because I got tired of poor
airbrakes, poor wheel brakes, and sensitive elevator with lots of
feedback in turbulence. I did not miss it.

There are better choices, with much better airbrakes for safer landings,
conventional elevators so you don't have to hold the stick in both hands
over 75 knots, wheel brakes that work without modification, more crash
protection. They cost more money, but there is a good reason for that:
they are better gliders in several ways. If you can afford one with auto
hook up controls, especially the elevator, make that a priority.

A good trailer is good, too, but a safe, comfortable, pleasant to fly
glider is more important. You can always work on the trailer and improve
it, but most of us can't do much for the glider.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

On 3/17/2011 4:01 PM, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Mar 17, 2:55 pm, Walt ConnellyWalt.Connelly.
wrote:
Okay folks, your thoughts on the Standard Cirrus? Good, bad
indifferent? Flying tail, pros and cons? I am new to gliding,
Commercial Add on, 140 flights and approx 100 hours, mostly in 1-34.
Would this be a reasonable next step?

They are still an excellent glider. There are many here in NZ and from
time to time an up and coming pilot gives the modern standard class
ships a fright in one.

The bar has been raised substantially for "excellent". The Std Cirrus is
now "OK" at best.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

By your reasoning Eric the Ferrari 250 GTO (Possibly the most desirable car
in the world) is also a pile of crap.

It's unstable, unreliable, has poor brakes and is not much quicker than a
modern family saloon.

The Cirrus (with modified brakes) is no worse than any of it's
contemporaries, and is definately better than a Libelle.
The wheelbrake & crashworthiness are also the same as others of the same
era.

The "holding the stick with both hands above 75kts" is nonsense.

To get the first generation "Safety Cockpit" the OP would need to go for
an ASW24 - twice the price, twice the running costs, doesn't climb very
well and glides marginally better.

A Discus, climbs about as well as the Cirrus, glides about as well as the
24, doesn't have a "Safety Cockpit" - Costs 3 times the Cirrus

ASW27, ASG29, JS1, V2, D2 - all megabucks compared to the Cirrus

The Cirrus is *still* an excellent glider

At 02:03 18 March 2011, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 3/17/2011 4:01 PM, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Mar 17, 2:55 pm, Walt Connelly wrote:
Okay folks, your thoughts on the Standard Cirrus? Good, bad
indifferent? Flying tail, pros and cons? I am new to gliding,
Commercial Add on, 140 flights and approx 100 hours, mostly in 1-34.
Would this be a reasonable next step?

They are still an excellent glider. There are many here in NZ and from
time to time an up and coming pilot gives the modern standard class
ships a fright in one.

The bar has been raised substantially for "excellent". The Std Cirrus
is
now "OK" at best.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

On Mar 17, 1:55*am, Walt Connelly Walt.Connelly.
wrote:
Okay folks, your thoughts on the Standard Cirrus? *Good, bad
indifferent? *Flying tail, pros and cons? *I am new to gliding,
Commercial Add on, 140 flights and approx 100 hours, mostly in 1-34.
Would this be a reasonable next step?

Walt

--
Walt Connelly

I have several hundred hours in this type. My briefing when I first
flew one was 'Don't worry if it feels like the control are
disconnected and don't let go of the stick'. It does have very light
control forces and no stick free pitch stability whatsover. However it
is perfectly nice to fly and most pilots wouldn't even notice the lack
of stick free stability. Even if you do let go of the stick, provided
it is properly trimmed, it takes quite a few seconds to go out of
control in the form of a phugoid. It is not the only glider that does
this.

Points to watch out for is that the ailerons are not particularly
effective at the start of the ground run until you get the tail up and
a bit of speed, and the airbrakes are not very effective unless they
are fitted with the double paddle modification. Also if winch
launching, don't ram the stick hard forward to contain the rotation as
it is just possible to stall the elevator with a powerful winch. Just
hold the stick about two-thirds forward and hold it there until
established in the full climb.

Derek C

On 3/18/2011 2:25 AM, Peter F wrote:
By your reasoning Eric the Ferrari 250 GTO (Possibly the most desirable car
in the world) is also a pile of crap.

It's unstable, unreliable, has poor brakes and is not much quicker than a
modern family saloon.

The Std Cirrus is no Ferrari (i.e., possibly the most desirable glider
in the world), nor would I recommend the Ferrari to a driver with the
experience level of the person asking about the Std Cirrus.

The Cirrus (with modified brakes) is no worse than any of it's
contemporaries, and is definately better than a Libelle.

Yes, I understand the wheel brakes can be improved, as I implied. My 301
had excellent wheel brakes (the glider I got after my Std Cirrus) -
don't know about other Libelles.

The wheelbrake & crashworthiness are also the same as others of the same
era.

Not a great recommendation!

The "holding the stick with both hands above 75kts" is nonsense.

Not on my Std Cirrus - G forces (like encountering a thermal) would
cause it to apply elevator in the same direction, aggravating the
situation. It's very easy to feel this "positive feedback" on the stick
while cruising in the 75 knot speed range in turbulent (thermals or
ridge) conditions. The cause is the elevator circuit is unbalanced
mechanically for vertical G forces.

It had a distinctly different high-speed behavior than the conventional
elevator stick ships I've flown since then, all of which were very
steady at high speeds in turbulence.

To get the first generation "Safety Cockpit" the OP would need to go for
an ASW24 - twice the price, twice the running costs, doesn't climb very
well and glides marginally better.

It's not necessary to go that new to get a worthwhile improvement, such
as the LS4 offers. Besides the cockpit improvement, most newer gliders
offer automatic hookups, which may be more important in improving safety.

A Discus, climbs about as well as the Cirrus, glides about as well as the
24, doesn't have a "Safety Cockpit" - Costs 3 times the Cirrus

ASW27, ASG29, JS1, V2, D2 - all megabucks compared to the Cirrus

The Cirrus is *still* an excellent glider

And if the Std Cirrus defines "excellent", how do we describe an ASW28
or an LS8?

I got the impression the person asking the question was not enamored
with the the Std Cirrus, but was trying to do a cost/benefit analysis. I
was encouraging him to think beyond the basics and consider the value of
buying more safety and a nicer flying glider.

Just in case it's not clear: I owned a Std Cirrus for two years
(1978-1980), flew it for 500 hours, and had a lot of fun in it; however,
it's 45 year old design, and now there are many better choices. I don't
think it's a dangerous glider, but it does have characteristics less
suited to a relatively new pilot than, say, an LS4, or other newer gliders.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

The only problem I have with an ASW-28 or LS-8 is I can't buy a nice
example with a good trailer for under 20K


And if the Std Cirrus defines "excellent", how do we describe an ASW28
or an LS8?

I got the impression the person asking the question was not enamored
with the the Std Cirrus, but was trying to do a cost/benefit analysis. I
was encouraging him to think beyond the basics and consider the value of
buying more safety and a nicer flying glider.

Just in case it's not clear: I owned a Std Cirrus for two years
(1978-1980), flew it for 500 hours, and had a lot of fun in it; however,
it's 45 year old design, and now there are many better choices. I don't
think it's a dangerous glider, but it does have characteristics less
suited to a relatively new pilot than, say, an LS4, or other newer gliders.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarmhttp://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz