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No SID in clearance, fly it anyway?



 
 
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  #191  
Old November 8th 03, 06:22 PM
Ron Rosenfeld
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On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 10:21:53 -0500, "Robert Henry"
wrote:

If the arriving
aircraft cancels IFR and proceeds direct to the field...that's different.


Yes it is, but that wasn't the situation you initially described. In my
experience, it is unusual for an aircraft to cancel IFR when arriving at a
towered field.

Does that happen frequently at your field?

Now, if the tower was expecting an easterly departure, and the aircraft
proceeds west according to the ODP, then what?


If the a/c is departing IFR, with no particular alternate departure
instructions, the tower should expect that the aircraft will fly the ODP.
Again, if the tower is NOT expecting the IFR departure to fly the ODP, then
they need proper training.

In any event, I would expect that the tower would clear arriving VFR
aircraft to enter the pattern in such a way as to not conflict with
departing traffic.

At towered airports where I have operated, in a situation similar to what
you are now describing, the tower will usually issue advisories to both
aircraft. It sure has not been unusual for me to depart an airport in VMC
and have traffic arriving from many directions.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
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  #192  
Old November 8th 03, 11:48 PM
Newps
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Robert Henry wrote:

Sure, as long as the arrival remains IFR. If the arriving aircraft is
cleared for the visual, the departing aircraft is probably not going to be
released,


Probably? I guarantee it, unless someone provides visual separation.


If the arriving
aircraft cancels IFR and proceeds direct to the field...that's different.
Now, if the tower was expecting an easterly departure, and the aircraft
proceeds west according to the ODP, then what?


Well, since he cancelled IFR it doesn't matter.


No, the tower is saying, we don't know what you are going to do, so it'd be
nice if you would tell us. Are you saying that the tower is responsible for
protecting the ODP? I don't believe that's the case, else they wouldn't
have to request a release.


The fact that a tower has to request a release has nothing to do with
the ODP. That is simply what the tower and their approach control have
worked out. I worked in the flatlands of North Dakota for a while, we
had to get a release for every IFR departure.


  #193  
Old November 9th 03, 12:14 AM
Robert Henry
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"Newps" wrote in message
news:[email protected]_s01...


Robert Henry wrote:

Sure, as long as the arrival remains IFR. If the arriving aircraft is
cleared for the visual, the departing aircraft is probably not going to

be
released,


Probably? I guarantee it, unless someone provides visual separation.


So it, possible, but most unlikely? Isn't that probably not.

If the arriving
aircraft cancels IFR and proceeds direct to the field...that's

different.
Now, if the tower was expecting an easterly departure, and the aircraft
proceeds west according to the ODP, then what?


Well, since he cancelled IFR it doesn't matter.


Well, it would be nice if it did, too. It remains my hope that a midair in
Class D airspace because the inbound aircraft was instructed (verbally or
through omission of other instructions) to continue, and the outbound
aircraft was proceeding on the inverse (ODP) heading is not going to be a
career enhancing incident for the tower. In other words, "How did you not
know that the departing aircarft was flying the ODP."



No, the tower is saying, we don't know what you are going to do, so it'd

be
nice if you would tell us. Are you saying that the tower is responsible

for
protecting the ODP? I don't believe that's the case, else they wouldn't
have to request a release.


The fact that a tower has to request a release has nothing to do with
the ODP. That is simply what the tower and their approach control have
worked out. I worked in the flatlands of North Dakota for a while, we
had to get a release for every IFR departure.


Is it safe to conclude that if an aircraft departs IFR without a release
that the ODP may not be protected at that time? I am certain there is a
relationship, even if there are 100+ better reasons that most SOPs/LOAs
require a coordinated release before departure.



  #194  
Old November 9th 03, 01:21 AM
Newps
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Robert Henry wrote:

Well, since he cancelled IFR it doesn't matter.



Well, it would be nice if it did, too. It remains my hope that a midair in
Class D airspace because the inbound aircraft was instructed (verbally or
through omission of other instructions) to continue, and the outbound
aircraft was proceeding on the inverse (ODP) heading is not going to be a
career enhancing incident for the tower. In other words, "How did you not
know that the departing aircarft was flying the ODP."


But he cancelled, so the tower controller is under no obligation to do
anything. When I worked at the VFR tower we would simply say "traffic
is one Cessna inbound from the NE, freq change approved."


Is it safe to conclude that if an aircraft departs IFR without a release
that the ODP may not be protected at that time?


Sure, it may also be littered with VFR aircraft going the same direction.


I am certain there is a
relationship, even if there are 100+ better reasons that most SOPs/LOAs
require a coordinated release before departure.


All towers have an LOA with their approach control on how they will
handle IFR traffic. Some class D's will have automatic releases on a
few headings or within a pie. The pie will be some wedge fanning out
from the departure end encompassing about 60 degrees. Most class D's
will have to call for each release. Likewise the approach control will
be required to inform the tower of each inbound and turn over comm by a
certain point. Now if all IFR aircraft will be flying a certain same
exact procedure then what you have is essentially nonradar airspace.
When that happens there will only be one aircraft in the area at a time,
whether that is a departure or an arrival.

  #195  
Old November 19th 03, 09:51 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

Had a strange thing happen to me today. I filed IFR HPN - HFD (White
Plains NY to Hartford CT). The route part of my clearance came back
"radar vectors Carmel[VOR], V1, Hartford[VOR], Direct".


Unless they made some major changes to the airway structure in the northeast
recently, V1 does not go to HFD from CMK, V3 does.



Usually out of HPN I would expect to get the Westchester-1 departure,
but it wasn't in my clearance, and I when I read back the clearance
without it, I got "readback correct". Seemed a little strange, but I
went with the flow (I should have asked for clarification, I'm not
sure why I didn't). The turn in the SID took us away from our first
fix, so I guess I figured they were just doing us a favor or something
with a shorter routing.

We took off and I started climbing straight out. The HPN-1 has an
almost 180-degree turn almost immediately. The guy I was with asked
me why I wasn't making the turn and I said we weren't on the SID. I
asked tower and they said I should be on the SID.


Sounds like you were departing RWY 16, what vector did they issue prior to
takeoff?



So, what went wrong? Did I goof? Am I supposed to fly the SID (not a
DP) even though it's not in the clearance? Is it more likely that it
was in the clearance but I just didn't hear it and the controller
didn't notice that it wasn't in the readback?


Well, somebody goofed. Can't say for sure who it was without knowledge of
standard procedures or hearing the tapes. You say it's unusual to not be
issued the Westchester One departure, but you read the clearance back as
issued and clearance delivery said it was correct. But since the clearance
was "radar vectors Carmel" a heading should have been issued with the
takeoff clearance. Was it? If one was not, and you weren't issued the
departure procedure, you shoul have known something was amiss before taking
the runway.


  #196  
Old November 28th 05, 10:06 PM
Ginny Ginny is offline
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Location: Saigon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy Smith
Had a strange thing happen to me today. I filed IFR HPN - HFD (White
Plains NY to Hartford CT). The route part of my clearance came back
"radar vectors Carmel[VOR], V1, Hartford[VOR], Direct".

Usually out of HPN I would expect to get the Westchester-1 departure,
but it wasn't in my clearance, and I when I read back the clearance
without it, I got "readback correct". Seemed a little strange, but I
went with the flow (I should have asked for clarification, I'm not
sure why I didn't). The turn in the SID took us away from our first
fix, so I guess I figured they were just doing us a favor or something
with a shorter routing.

We took off and I started climbing straight out. The HPN-1 has an
almost 180-degree turn almost immediately. The guy I was with asked
me why I wasn't making the turn and I said we weren't on the SID. I
asked tower and they said I should be on the SID.

So, what went wrong? Did I goof? Am I supposed to fly the SID (not a
DP) even though it's not in the clearance? Is it more likely that it
was in the clearance but I just didn't hear it and the controller
didn't notice that it wasn't in the readback?
As I understand, you get climb out instruction from approach unit before departure (if it's not included in the ATC clearance). That climb out instruction can be or cannot be SID. In anyway, you just follow it. I think htere could be some misunderstanding between tower and approach controllers. So if there happen to be something unclear, pilot need to make sure with ATC unit. We never assume anything.
 




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