Fly Boy ?????

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: Cub Driver
Date: 10/21/03 4:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

Bush 41 is not the albatross that many think. The media tell you that
he lost the election (a close one) because of a recession and a war
that turned out badly (in that Saddam remained in power).

Yeah it is all the fault of the press.

rather doubt Bush 41 was the youngest USN pilot of WWII, though he
was certainly just a boy

Weren't we all. Big deal.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Lets assume that half of it is true.

Well, I have to give him greater credit than that - the author had access to
all of the war crimes trial records and assembled a well-researched book that I
haven't seen anyone tear apart yet. His prose is a bit over the top at times,
like when he talks of the sights and smells on a carrier in the context of the
WWII Essex class boats, and he mentions the smell of "jet fuel". A few small
mistakes like that, plus a writer likes to overuse phrases, but the end result
is well written book about a ghastly moment in human history. WEB Griffin and
other professional historians were impressed, and I think the book is worth a
read, if you don't mind a few unpleasant mental images. I came away with it
with a better understanding of George H.W. Bush as a man. No such revelations
are waiting to be revealed about his son - I believe that he will be remembered
quite harshly by history.

But I think the wirters were doing a
sales
job to engrandise the Bush name for the next election.

I couldn't confuse the two men and nothing either of them could say would
change my opinion of the current administration. I believe that politicians
should be required to wear similar coveralls to race-car drivers, with all of
their sponsors listed or represented by garrish logos. Our president has
obliterated our country's reputation in the world, and the majority of the
world and a good part of our own citizenry know it. I love my country and
can't believe how much one presidency has altered the world's perception of us.

v/r
Gordon

"


Gosh, I don't know.

Lessee. He became ambassador to China, head of the Central
Intelligence Agency, president of the United States ...

No, nothing in there would explain why anyone would be more interested
in him than in, say, Art Kramer.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9


Not very good at any of those jobs.

Arthur Kramer

Nor qualified.

On 20 Oct 2003 23:42:29 GMT, nt (Gordon) wrote:

The
book "Flyboys" is intensely interesting and gives a lot of insight into why
the
other airmen were eaten by the Japanese officers, to strengthen their
fighting
spirit.

I didn't realize that Bush 41 came so close to being eaten!

He also never met Monica Lewinsky!

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: nt (Gordon)
Date: 10/21/03 7:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: 20031021102249.19539.00

I couldn't confuse the two men and nothing either of them could say would
change my opinion of the current administration. I believe that politicians
should be required to wear similar coveralls to race-car drivers, with all of
their sponsors listed or represented by garrish logos. Our president has
obliterated our country's reputation in the world, and the majority of the
world and a good part of our own citizenry know it. I love my country and
can't believe how much one presidency has altered the world's perception of
us.

v/r
Gordon




Y'know, I've always liked you Gordon. (grin)



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

I didn't realize that Bush 41 came so close to being eaten!


He was one short swim away from an island that was populated by soldiers led by
officers that felt eating the liver of an enemy was beneficial to their health.
That belief didn't explain eating other body parts, notably the thigh meat,
but the bottom line is that Bush paddled out - the other airmen paddled in, not
knowing that their choice was fatal.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

Y'know, I've always liked you Gordon.


Thanks, Art. When I lived in Austin, folks seemed amazed I didn't follow Bush
around like one of his flock. My bumper sticker, "I didn't vote for his daddy
either" was rather unpopular and earned me quite a few 1/2 peace signs during
my time there.

v/r
Gordon

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: nt (Gordon)
Date: 10/21/03 7:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


I didn't realize that Bush 41 came so close to being eaten!


He was one short swim away from an island that was populated by soldiers led
by
officers that felt eating the liver of an enemy was beneficial to their
health.
That belief didn't explain eating other body parts, notably the thigh meat,
but the bottom line is that Bush paddled out - the other airmen paddled in,
not
knowing that their choice was fatal.

v/r
Gordon


Bush escaped death and so did Kennedy. But you don't win wars that way. You win
wars by attacking the enemy and burning his black heart out leaving his nation
a smoking burning ruin. Screw the "heroics" of the politicians. I'd rather hear
the stories of the men who got the job done, many who never came home. The
exploits of both Bush and Kennedy are weak tea when compared to better men who
helped destroy the enemy, many who now lie in foreign graves..My friends among
them.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: nt (Gordon)
Date: 10/21/03 7:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


I didn't realize that Bush 41 came so close to being eaten!


He was one short swim away from an island that was populated by soldiers
led
by
officers that felt eating the liver of an enemy was beneficial to their
health.
That belief didn't explain eating other body parts, notably the thigh
meat,
but the bottom line is that Bush paddled out - the other airmen paddled
in,
not
knowing that their choice was fatal.

v/r
Gordon


Bush escaped death and so did Kennedy. But you don't win wars that way.
You win
wars by attacking the enemy and burning his black heart out leaving his
nation
a smoking burning ruin. Screw the "heroics" of the politicians. I'd rather
hear
the stories of the men who got the job done, many who never came home. The
exploits of both Bush and Kennedy are weak tea when compared to better men
who
helped destroy the enemy, many who now lie in foreign graves..My friends
among
them.


Now I have no axe to grind one way or the other but this seems
a little harsh. As best I recall Bush did get the job done, he was
no politician at the time, just another carrier pilot and he left a few
of his friends behind too. Including his rear gunner and radioman
neither of whom was rescued after they were shot down.

This guy flew 58 combat missions Art, I'd say he did his share.

Keith

Bush escaped death and so did Kennedy. But you don't win wars that way.
You win
wars by attacking the enemy and burning his black heart out leaving his
nation
a smoking burning ruin.

The island of Chichi Jima had more troops than the citadel of Iwo Jima, and was
vastly easier to defend - luckily it was bypassed and we only bombed it as it
would undoubtably have been the most costly US invasion of the war. To attack
the critical radio relay stations and other facilities, carrier planes had to
come into a sort of bowl, with only one exit, out a narrow cleft that opened to
the sea. The Japanese had the ability to fire in a near 180 degree field,
knowing in advance that every attacker would have to flee through that pass -
guns were trained to fire down upon any such trespasser. One flight of three
Avengers were all destroyed, other groups hitting the same target collided in
the cramped confines of this bowl, leading to one of the more famous WWII
aviation images, the Avenger in flight, minus the outer 1/2 of its port wing.
Bush went down into the same firestorm of flak, pressed home his attacks and
was rewarded with multiple strikes on his own aircraft, including fatal hits.
Whatever he became later in life, Bush Sr. was in the middle of a shooting war
and he was doing his part.

Screw the "heroics" of the politicians. I'd rather
hear
the stories of the men who got the job done, many who never came home.

Well, the book Flyboys is not about Bush nearly so much as it is the story of
the other airmen, officer and enlisted, that were executed on Chichi Jima
during that time. They endured unbelievable cruelty and the Japanese relished
in punishing these captives for every bombing strike. The war crimes files
that are now open allowed the author to include statements of admission and
other interviews from the Japanese officers and soldiers, many of whom were
every bit as horrified by the actions of their commanders. In each case, the
demise of the individual airman is recorded and Japanese statements tie up the
details. Bush's somewhat miraculous recovery in the often-seen submarine SAR
footage is only a sidelight in a book that concentrates itself on telling the
story of Floyd and Jimmy and all the other heroes who gave their all on that
wretched little island.

v/r
Gordon

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: "Keith Willshaw"
Date: 10/21/03 8:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time

Now I have no axe to grind one way or the other but this seems
a little harsh. As best I recall Bush did get the job done, he was
no politician at the time, just another carrier pilot and he left a few
of his friends behind too. Including his rear gunner and radioman
neither of whom was rescued after they were shot down.

This guy flew 58 combat missions Art, I'd say he did his share.

Keith



Let me tell you a story about a long forgotten incident in WW II. It is one of
those things that have never been discussed on this NG. There was a famous
footblall player, a famous All American who became a B-17 pilot. His plane was
severely damaged by flack and he bailed out and survived. But not a single one
of hsd crew did. There were accusations that he lost his nerve and bailed
before his crew could get out. And they all died because of his cowardice.
Noithing was ever proven and he was not prosecuted. But there was always that
lingering doubt. And this haunted him all his life. Whenever I hear of a pilot
that made it out, but the crew were all lost, it brings back the memory of
that WW II incident.
And there many of us who will never forget it.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer