Rough Field Landings

Thank your for a very informative reply, Jim. I need to look for more
information on survival articles/books that you refer to because I did
not think of some of the issues you mentioned. One probably gets only
one chance to do it right.

Deep

Like this?

http://tinyurl.com/4ekj5

Karl
"Curator" N185KG

Selwaykid's comment about ag pilots is dead on. I've grown up on and still
work on a vegetable farm and have a close relationship with our ag pilots.
I've seen several make emergency landings off airport. Most walk away
shaken, but not stirred. Those that do not constantly pay attention to
where they would land sometimes do not walk away. They have to have a
landing spot in mind at all times because unlike GA pilots, their first move
isn't to "pick" or head to a landing spot. It's dump the load, climb, then
head to the landing spot that they already have in their mind.

Next time you get around a "good" ag pilot, not just a wind bag, pull him
aside and ask him what he watches for and keeps in the back of his head at
all times.

Jim

wrote in message
oups.com...
Thank your for a very informative reply, Jim. I need to look for more
information on survival articles/books that you refer to because I did
not think of some of the issues you mentioned. One probably gets only
one chance to do it right.

Deep



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Hello Icebound...
Well, do you know how tall the trees are? How big around are they? Are
they on a slope? Every situation is different but its nice to have some
kind of plan to work with. The fallacy of landing in the tops of trees
(from personal experience) is the aircraft is probably very near stall
speed. As soon as you touch a tree top the speed is very quickly
dragged into the stall range and the aircraft will head down. In my
case as a wing tip dragged across a tree top, the aircraft slewed
abruptly and started nearly nose down before it slammed into a big Oak
right on the nose. Then it settled nearly flat to the ground, or on top
of the smaller trees that got compressed as we settled. (in a C-150 at
night-1967)
In many parts of the world, those trees can be 200' tall and if you
stall out in the tops, you are headed for a hard fall. After seeing
many crashes into the trees, and in discussions with pilots who have
participated in the crash, or the rescue, most of us were in agreement
that its better to aim for a point near the ground and let the inertia
of the aircraft plow its way down and crash under control. even with
light aircraft you can make a pretty good hole in the trees. Survival
is pretty much a crap shoot in any event and I'm sure we all have seen
some miraculous stories...at least I have, of surivors of unsurvivable
crashes with no more than some bruises and lingering nightmares. I was
part of a search for a pilot in the Amazon in the early 60's when he
lost his engine about :05 out. We searched for him for two weeks and
never saw a sign. He came stumbling out of the jungle on day 15 non the
less for wear and tear. The trees there were at least 200' tall and
dense undergrowth. He worked his way back by trying to follow the
sounds of the occasional aircraft taking off. He had aimed for the base
of the trees and when we went back to the crash site could see his
crash path. From the air it was nearly impossible to spot.
So, you take your chances and hope for the best.
Ol Shy & Bashful

Wow Mr Burns! Never seen so much in one place so well said. In particular:

Do what ever it takes to reduce your chances of rolling or tumbling the
aircraft. Keep the centerline of the aircraft pointed in the direction
that
you are traveling.

Look for power poles, not lines. You're able to see poles a lot sooner
than you'll ever see the lines. Do not forget about guy wires.

Land "behind" the house rather than in front. The odds are better that
the
power lines enter from the front.

If you try to land on a road and there is a house or building nearby, odds
are 50/50 that there will be power lines crossing the road.

Think about why a potential landing spot is in the condition that it is.
Many times areas of long grass aren't mowed for a reason.... rocks?
swamp?.
Avoid them unless you are familiar with the area (and if you have a
choice).

Not adding any value here, just repeating because it's all good.

Z
Slope landings are tricky. Upslope or downslope....the problem is
trying to determine the slope angle. So, having done a lot of crop
dusting on mountain slopes with really severe angles, may I offer the
following....
There are those who say land upslope. Problem is the slope may be so
severe that you get nearly into a 60-90 approach angle! You won't know
until its too late. If you fly cross slope until the very last of your
controllable flying speed, you can make a hard turn upslope and at
least know, or guess, how hard the impact is going to be. To turn
downslope is putting yourself on a piece of junk headed down hill at
40mph or faster and it could go even much faster with only something
very ugly to stop you.
Corn often grows 10" or more and it is tough as hell...will drag you to
stop in an amazing short distance. Same is true of many crops like
cotton, oats, cane, sunflowers, etc. Once you touch the top of the crop
you are going to touch down blind. If you are lucky, you'll touch down
with the rows and minimum damage. If not.......hmmmmmm
On city streets, the biggest problem is wires crossing everywhere. In
my crop dusting career I've gone thru at least 18 wires and logged each
of them. Certainly the aircraft were equipped with wirecutter devices,
but still, there are wires that will not pay attention to modern
technology and kill you. Start to look at wires as you drive around and
see what you would do to get over/under them. That is the best advice I
can give on that. With my experience I know I can duck under or flare
over depending on the circumstances and not be afraid of being so close
to the ground when it isn't an airport. Same for going under bridges or
overpasses. Traffic kind of determines what to do in those cases.
I've done a lot of slope landings with helicopters and believe me, just
a couple degrees can make a huge difference. At phyxed wing speeds it
is nearly impossible to discern those angles unless you are flying
cross slope. The stress level with be off the scale by then so you have
to have the plan worked out ahead of time and then hope you can follow
it.
If my reply gets out of sequence please bear with me. The thoughts get
so excited and out of step. I'll be glad to elaborate if I have
confused you.
Merry Christmas and fly safe
Ol Shy & Bashful

Jim
You sound like an ag pilot! Excellent advice. I'm glad this post got
the activity it has and hope it will save someone in the future if
faced with an emergency off airport landing. Your input is certainly
valid and valuable.
Cheers
Rocky aka SelwayKid (from the Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness of Montana)

Maule Driver
You certainly bring up cogent points and its a pleasure to see some
coherent thinking on a subject that too many just brush off with the
thought, "It won't happen to me". In the 40 years I have been
instructing, I've had several former students track me down to tell me
that something I told them or insisted on saved their lives later in
their careers. You cannot imagine how gratifying that is for me as an
instructor.
Again, I make no claims to be the ace of the base. I'm just a pilot who
has made so many mistakes and errors in judgement that I survived that
it makes the average pilot look like Chuck Yeager! Pretty difficult for
him and Hoover to admit mistakes though........ggg
I hope this keeps on going as a learning tool even for me. I've never
flown a glider or an ultra light. I'll do both before I head west.
Best Regards
Rocky

wrote in message
oups.com...

snip

Corn often grows 10" or more and it is tough as hell...will drag you to
stop in an amazing short distance.

EXCELLENT thread!

This reminds me of my checkride when the DE asked me to perform an emergency
landing. I picked a field full of corn since there were no cleared fields
around. He let me get so close that I clearly remember seeing individual
leaves on the plants. Heck, I was slipping the plane too. He asked me if I
thought we would stop before we reached the other side of the field and I
replied that we would stop quickly due to the corn. With that, he had me
abort the landing and go on to the next task.

This comes to mind vividly because this was the closest I have come to
actually landing out. I was probably 80' above the corn and quickly dropping
when we aborted and in my mind, we were going in. I was slipping to make
sure that we hit the corn near the field's edge. Many times I have imagined
what it would have been like to continue that landing.

Has anyone here actually landed in a cornfield like this?

-Trent
PP-ASEL

Good point about difficult to find. I remember a glider crash into the
trees during a competition in the Pennslyvania appalacians. We were on the
ground listening to the pilot try to direct overhead searching aircraft and
on the ground walking searchers to where he was hung in the trees. Finally
he had to get himself out and down and walk out. The bright white Glider
was never seen from the air. Had to walk back in the next day to get it.

Perhaps one of the more important tasks is making sure that ELT works. (not
req'd in gliders)

wrote in message
ups.com...
.. I was
part of a search for a pilot in the Amazon in the early 60's when he
lost his engine about :05 out. We searched for him for two weeks and
never saw a sign. He came stumbling out of the jungle on day 15 non the
less for wear and tear. The trees there were at least 200' tall and
dense undergrowth. He worked his way back by trying to follow the
sounds of the occasional aircraft taking off. He had aimed for the base
of the trees and when we went back to the crash site could see his
crash path. From the air it was nearly impossible to spot.
So, you take your chances and hope for the best.
Ol Shy & Bashful