Letter to the FAA

Originally Posted by Dave White[_2_]

Hello Walt, First I want to thank you for all the great tows when I was working on my CFIG back in February. If you want to send your letter to the FAA, and it sounds as if you will, you might want to take some precautions. In the 40+ years I flew for a living only 3 or 4 pilots contacted the FAA with safety concerns. To be fair we had other avenues, i.e. Union, etc to air our grievances. But a few did go to the FAA and later had regrets. If they pursue your concerns you may be asked some hard questions. Did you report the incident? To whom did you report the incident? Employer, NASA, FAA, SSA, or anybody else? Did you do a proper preflight of the tow hook? There will be many other questions but I think you get my point. They will be thorough and you will feel as if you are in crosshairs. And you will be in the crosshairs. Before you put a stamp on it get some advice from an aviation lawyer. AOPA has a great legal staff. I would trust their opinion on how to approach the FAA before listening to anyone else. Good luck.

Dave,

Thank you, I truly loved towing skilled pilots, students and the geriatric crowd not so much but such is life.

As an old retiree I am not aware of all the avenues available for reporting and
"complaining" but I am trying to be careful in all aspects of this endeavor.

I of course reported this to the manager and VP, they are well aware of the incident, more aware than they would like to be I am sure. If there are other avenues of reporting please advise. I was all over the FAA site looking for reporting information and could not find any. Go figure.

I am finding it very difficult to find the information I need as many links to things I want to read are not working. I have learned alot though and my conclusion is that tow pilots, unless they are A&P's or otherwise very familiar with regulations and requirements are doing things everyday contrary to manufacturers recommendations among other things. For instance I understand that towing a glider of a maximum gross weight exceeding 1500 lbs is prohibited by the Schweizer manufacturer, not so with the Tost which I can find information that it exceed 3000 lbs.

One might conclude from this thread that there is an acceptable death rate among tow pilots and that $2500 dollars and repositioning release handles is too much to prevent a death.

Hope you are having a ball teaching.

Walt

Walt,
Glad to see you saved my message as my fat fingers managed to delete it trying to edit on my phone� I would start with NASA even though you are outside the 10 day window and copy to SSA. https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report/electronic.html You might consider joining AOPA as they have a great legal team and a good track record of dealing with the FAA.
Regards,
Dave

A Tost CG release is made to release with a rear load on it. Why couldn't that release be mounted on a tow plane so that when the glider got too high it would "back release"?

Boggs

Ummmm.......the glider would have to be over/in front of the tug?!?!
By then, the tug pilot is standing on the rudder pedals and grabbing anything to release the rope.

On Thursday, June 29, 2017 at 6:39:57 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
Ummmm.......the glider would have to be over/in front of the tug?!?!
By then, the tug pilot is standing on the rudder pedals and grabbing anything to release the rope.

Nope. Hook would be mounted so that the "rear" of the hook(in a glider) would be up and then installation angle tilted such that the back release function would actuate at the "desired" angle.
First look(I just looked at one) is that the hook would not be operating on a regular basis with the force in the direction intended. That would make me concerned about reliability and wear issues.
FWIW
UH

On Thu, 29 Jun 2017 15:30:42 -0700, Waveguru wrote:

A Tost CG release is made to release with a rear load on it. Why
couldn't that release be mounted on a tow plane so that when the glider
got too high it would "back release"?

Probably because the angular difference between the rope on the ground
run and when it back-releases over the winch would be far too great to be
useful when dealing with a tug upset.

Two points:

- I don't know at what angle the cable is in relation to the glider datum
when the hook back-releases above the winch, but for sure the rope
angle during a winch launch is at least 40-45 degrees most of the time
and must increase to around 90 degrees above the winch. Don't forget
that there's bow in the cable.

- when doing release checks before the first winch launch of the day,
it can be quite difficult to pull the cable down and back under some
gliders with enough force to cause a back release. Usually this is
because the CG hook is fairly close in front of the main wheel.


Both effects are the result of the 'hook' not moving during a launch
until the pilot pulls the release. When a back release occurs its because
the rope is applying sufficient rearward force to move the guard ring
back far enough for the cable ring to fall off the end of the 'hook'.

The guard ring is on standoffs which pivot on the hook body and are held
forward by a spring. This is not very strong: when moving gliders round
the field its often easier to put the tow rope onto the CG hook by
pulling the guard ring back with a couple of fingers and slipping the
rope's ring over the rear end of the 'hook' than it is to open the canopy
and operate the release to put the rope on the nose hook.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Wednesday, June 28, 2017 at 8:43:11 AM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:

One might conclude from this thread that there is an acceptable
death rate among tow pilots

You state this like it's shocking.

There's a death rate associated with taking aspirin. Or lying in bed.

I looked up all fatal accidents for airplanes in the NTSB database containing the words "glider" and "tow". Back to 1970, it's 24. This link will open that search http://tinyurl.com/y9flwdkh

While there's nothing to celebrate here, that number is an order of magnitude smaller than the number you get in a search for fatal glider accidents over the same period of time (295) and nearly three orders of magnitude smaller than the number of all fatal accidents involving airplanes (22,062). If you sift through those 24 reports to find the fatal accidents where failure to release (for any reason) might have been a factor (many of the accidents happened well after the glider released normally) you might well be down to single digits. I've read about a third of them so far. In any event, you will get to a "small" number, albeit one with that came with catastrophic consequences for family, friends and associates in each and every case (as happened 22,000+ other times over hte same time frame in GA as a whole).. I have no death wish and I do not enjoy the prospect of unnecessary or easily avoidable risk to myself or my friends, and neither does anyone else I know.

Neither am I (or anyone else I know who tows) unconcerned about the potential for problems with the "Elmira Death Hook" (thanks, Gregg), but there's an awful lot else out there that (statistically) is far more likely to be our undoing, especially if we go soaring as well as tow. I do recommend towplane operators improve their release hardware at their earliest opportunity if they are still flying an EDH. And this is my own plan. In the meantime, as previously stated, we're still towing.

You'll do as you see fit of course. But I won't be at all surprised when no one at the FAA takes this very seriously, because on the numbers, they should have better things to do. If per chance someone does (Hi Steve, I hope you're reading!), then the right way to go is get helpful information in the hands of operators, not simply ground everyone.

There are STC'd kits for many towplanes available. By no means all, and mine is one of the oversights so no, I do not have the option of writing a $2500 check and making this happen immediately. Thanks for reading.

best regards,
Evan Ludeman / T8

Originally Posted by Tango Eight

On Wednesday, June 28, 2017 at 8:43:11 AM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:

One might conclude from this thread that there is an acceptable
death rate among tow pilots

You state this like it's shocking.

There's a death rate associated with taking aspirin. Or lying in bed.

I looked up all fatal accidents for airplanes in the NTSB database containing the words "glider" and "tow". Back to 1970, it's 24. This link will open that search http://tinyurl.com/y9flwdkh

While there's nothing to celebrate here, that number is an order of magnitude smaller than the number you get in a search for fatal glider accidents over the same period of time (295) and nearly three orders of magnitude smaller than the number of all fatal accidents involving airplanes (22,062). If you sift through those 24 reports to find the fatal accidents where failure to release (for any reason) might have been a factor (many of the accidents happened well after the glider released normally) you might well be down to single digits. I've read about a third of them so far. In any event, you will get to a "small" number, albeit one with that came with catastrophic consequences for family, friends and associates in each and every case (as happened 22,000+ other times over hte same time frame in GA as a whole).. I have no death wish and I do not enjoy the prospect of unnecessary or easily avoidable risk to myself or my friends, and neither does anyone else I know.

Neither am I (or anyone else I know who tows) unconcerned about the potential for problems with the "Elmira Death Hook" (thanks, Gregg), but there's an awful lot else out there that (statistically) is far more likely to be our undoing, especially if we go soaring as well as tow. I do recommend towplane operators improve their release hardware at their earliest opportunity if they are still flying an EDH. And this is my own plan. In the meantime, as previously stated, we're still towing.

You'll do as you see fit of course. But I won't be at all surprised when no one at the FAA takes this very seriously, because on the numbers, they should have better things to do. If per chance someone does (Hi Steve, I hope you're reading!), then the right way to go is get helpful information in the hands of operators, not simply ground everyone.

There are STC'd kits for many towplanes available. By no means all, and mine is one of the oversights so no, I do not have the option of writing a $2500 check and making this happen immediately. Thanks for reading.

best regards,
Evan Ludeman / T8

Yes Mr Ludeman, there is a death rate associated with asprin and lying in bed. In the case of aspirin if you have a compromised GI Tract or if you take too much you can develop GI bleeding which can lead to death. I also recall a patient with a CVA which was later attributable to excessive asprin use. There are better analgesic alternatives these days to aspirin but it's cheap and easily available over the counter just as there is a better alternative to the Schweizer hook as installed these days. Lying in bed can result in thrombosis which if not managed properly can lead to stroke or death, I am well aware of these things. The difference is that they are usually self inflicted. If inflicted by others who knew or should have known of the potential negative results then penalties can apply. Failure of a medical staff to not properly care for an invalid patient is well known and can result in sanctions.

The difference here is that the tow pilot is placed in jeopardy by the unskilled or careless action of the glider pilot on tow. The tow pilot is then further placed in jeopardy by a mechanical device well known to failure just when needed the most. My point is that this is a largely correctable condition. My recommendation will be to at a minimum, invert the Schweizer hook and reposition the release handle so as to make it quickly available to the tow pilot. I am trying very hard to not inhibit the sport of glider flying while at the same time improving the survivability of the tow pilot at a critical point in time.

Yes, more glider pilots die in accidents than tow pilots but these are largely the result of a mistake made by the glider pilot. I am not suggesting that we can totally eliminate risk from the sport. I ride a motorcycle, I've sky dived, flown the jump plane, scuba dived (I now only dive with someone well known to me as a result of a near major accident) and I was a volunteer for the Vietnam Police Action. I've ridden a 12 speed racing bicycle on the road with cars, hunted wild boar with a handgun and long bow, all these things could have resulted in my loss of life. Pilots by the very nature of what they do are risk takers.

Perhaps until you find yourself at a very low altitude, unable to release from a kiting glider due to a design flaw in the release you will not understand. Yes we continue to tow. I did 8 more tows the day of my last incident. I continued to tow for a couple of more weeks after the incident with the same set up.

I am additionally well aware that there is an altitude below which a tow pilot will not be able to react quickly enough regardless of the equipment available. That is a risk we take.

Yes, the FAA may totally ignore my response, but then again perhaps a few glider operations will see the validity of my point and make a life saving change. For the record an entire country has addressed this problem and long ago mandated the changes I am suggesting here. I do have my supporters.

Have a great day,

Walt

Your Momma ever tell you that you can catch more flies with honey? Why not do something pro-safety? A single simple starter task; find and share the Tost/337 info for L-19s. If the cost is @ $2,500 I'm confidant my club would raise that voluntarily in a week. But before we pass the hat it would make sense to know who to send the money to. Or if it is even possible to convert. Your refusal to take a single meaningful step towards safety prove your campaign is about vengeance against those dirty Elmira Death Hook operators that scared you and your safety claims are a cover story. The moral high ground is not yours Walt. Send your stupid letter, I'm confidant you lack the reasoning and persuasiveness to get a response from the FAA.
Yes, the FAA may totally ignore my response, but then again perhaps a
few glider operations will see the validity of my point and make a life
saving change. For the record an entire country has addressed this
problem and long ago mandated the changes I am suggesting here. I do
have my supporters.

Have a great day,

Walt




--
Walt Connelly

Pls also find one for an Aviat Husky and someone who is willing to sign off on the installation at the FAA without causing the airplane to be downed in the weeks and months of waiting for the paperwork to be processed. Or just ask Husky to quit making available their type certificate approved tow hook and release installation so we can use 4313 to produce our own.

Thanks