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Logging instrument approaches



 
 
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  #31  
Old July 23rd 03, 05:14 PM
Ron Natalie
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"Robert Henry" wrote in message news:7inTa.20005$o54.503@lakeread05...

All that said, which crewmember(s) is not doing their job when a TFR is
busted and the SP is acting PIC? Will both pilots be held responsible? Who
is likely to receive the worst penalty (assuming equivalent rating of the
pilots)?


The answer to that is the one that can be harmed the most. The FAA cares
not a hoot who is PIC or logs PIC time.

Now, assume the pilots have equivalent credentials, the SP is SIC. Will the
safety pilot be held responsible for a TFR violation? How? (According to
what (FAR)?)


The PIC is ultimately responsible for the SAFETY of the flight.
All pilots are responsible for obeying the FARs. Where does it say
that 91.137 says it only appiles to the pilot in command. The rule
says "persons." It's even possible for the FAA to string up people
who aren't pilots (for example in the case of air carriers, the operator
may be held liable).


  #32  
Old July 25th 03, 01:31 AM
Mark Kolber
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On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 23:29:03 -0400, "Robert Henry"
wrote:

All that said, which crewmember(s) is not doing their job when a TFR is
busted and the SP is acting PIC? Will both pilots be held responsible? Who
is likely to receive the worst penalty (assuming equivalent rating of the
pilots)?


First of all, bear in mind that none of the real situation you found
involve a safety pilot who was held responsible for a dereliction by
the flying pilot.

But that aside, I'll give you a specific scenario and you can tell me
whether the scenario is ridiculous.

Two pilot go for a flight. The flying pilot (FP) will be PIC for a
variety of reasons, not the least of which is that it's at night and
the safety pilot (SP) isn't night current, so SP can't be PIC.

FP is going to practice holds. No ATC communication. They just find a
handy VOR and remain at an altitude that both know is below the MVA so
they are out of the way of IFR. FP is practicing holds in anticipation
of a IPC. Does a really bad job of the hold. Turns to the non holding
side and, unfortunately, busts a Stadium TFR that they both knew
about.

Reasonable scenario?

I'd say SP is screwed. And I'd say he'd get a bigger penalty than the
FP who relied on him (unless the FP knew the SP was an idiot)

This is only an opinion, and you're free to disagree.

Mark Kolber
APA/Denver, Colorado
www.midlifeflight.com
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  #33  
Old July 25th 03, 04:36 PM
Ron Natalie
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"Mark Kolber" wrote in message ...


I'd say SP is screwed. And I'd say he'd get a bigger penalty than the
FP who relied on him (unless the FP knew the SP was an idiot)


The regulatory role of the safety pilot is to keep you from hitting other
aircraft. He's not there to back up other deficiencies in your flying.
If it wasn't for the regulatory requirement to see-and-avoid in VMC,
you wouldn't need him at all.

That's not to say the FAA won't go after you.


  #34  
Old July 27th 03, 11:00 PM
Mark Kolber
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On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:36:04 -0400, "Ron Natalie"
wrote:

The regulatory role of the safety pilot is to keep you from hitting other
aircraft. He's not there to back up other deficiencies in your flying.
If it wasn't for the regulatory requirement to see-and-avoid in VMC,
you wouldn't need him at all.


Of course being the hooded pilot's "eyes" is the safety pilot's
primary role.

But perhaps you can point me to the part of 91.109(b) that says that
the safety pilot's role is limited to seeing and avoiding other
aircraft. I couldn't find it.

On the other hand, I noticed that a recreational pilot cannot act as a
safety pilot. That despite being able to carry passengers, being rated
in category and class, and having a current medical. Wonder how come?
Could it possibly be because the FAA wanted someone who was also
trained more heavily in navigation and communication, the only two
skill sets that separate the rec from the private certificate?

I also noticed that the airplane must have dual controls, and that if
a throw-over is in the airplane, the safety pilot (notice, not the
PIC!) is given the specific responsibility of determining whether the
flight can be made safely.

Sounds just a little more serious than "hey stupid, turn left!"

I'm not suggesting that suddenly the safety pilot is responsible for
all sorts of things. But only that two concepts I see stated often,
either explicitly or implicitly

1. A safety pilot picks up no responsibility for a flight unless he's
also PIC.

and it's evil twin

2. § 91.3(a) means that no one except the PIC has any responsibility
for the safety of a flight

are incredibly simplistic and have no relationship to the real world
of responsibility and liability

Mark Kolber
APA/Denver, Colorado
www.midlifeflight.com
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