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#31
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Keith, this is _Michael_. "Facts" in his dimension don't actually reflect
events on our planet. While I commend your staying power, its never going to get Michael to the point of saying, "You know, I was wrong - the Soviets did this." because he _can't_; he was bred to accept any farflung story that praises the Stalinists and absolutely and fervently refute anything from the west. Not his fault - he is fulfulling his programming. v/r Gordon ====(A+C==== USN SAR Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone. |
#32
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"Krztalizer" wrote in message ... Keith, this is _Michael_. "Facts" in his dimension don't actually reflect events on our planet. While I commend your staying power, its never going to get Michael to the point of saying, "You know, I was wrong - the Soviets did this." because he _can't_; he was bred to accept any farflung story that praises the Stalinists and absolutely and fervently refute anything from the west. Not his fault - he is fulfulling his programming. v/r Gordon ====(A+C==== USN SAR True enough Michael lives in a world in which Stalin and Beria were peaceful social democrats deperately fending off attacks by that well known warmonger Neville Chamberlain and manfully defending the demi-paradise of the USSR against the invading Finnish hordes. Keith |
#33
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Michael lives in a world in which Stalin and Beria were peaceful
social democrats deperately fending off attacks by that well known warmonger Neville Chamberlain and manfully defending the demi-paradise of the USSR against the invading Finnish hordes. BINGO! |
#34
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"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"Michael Petukhov" wrote in message om... "Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ... "Michael Petukhov" wrote in message om... (2) Should one of the Contracting Powers become engaged in hostilities with a European Power in consequence of action by that Power which threatened the independence or neutrality of another European State in such a way as to constitute a clear menace to the security of that Contracting Party, the provisions of Article 1 will apply, without prejudice, however, to the rights of the other European State concerned. WOW! "another European State" now. ------------------ Irony Mode On Gee what a surprise when the original treaty referred to 'a European State' it really meant 'a European State' Exactly. according to this SECRET PROTOCOL Britain and Poland agreed to start aggresive war against "a European State" using ANY action of that "a European State". Try again Michael , the agreement states clearly that this only applies if the action of that European states threatens the security of either Britain or Poland. Too wide range of cases to be true defensive pact. In your opinion Not only. No government in a good mind would enter a devensive pact with other goverment which can be triggered by ANY action of third party goverment. It is basurd and nonsense, unless of course this (first goverment) knew in advance that it was not going to do anything to fulfil its obligations. Who will decide what is threat and what is not? Imagine for a moment if Poland invaded Lithuania in 1939 and USSR moved forces to protect it against Poland would it "threatens the security of either Britain or Poland"? Possibly but then that would not have happened as a result of another European Nation but of Poland which would give Britain an out. Sure? Poland betraied France at least three times in 38-39 having a defencive deal with France and despite of all French efforts. After all that what was a basis to trust Poland at all? Very probable scenario in 1939 by the way. Poles tried actually ones and were stoped by strong Stalin reaction only. I think this is why Mr. Halifax signed that mutual assistence pact with (Keith note) THE SECRET PROTOCOL. His hopes for big war in eastern europe of all against USSR were quite real. That is possibly the silliest statement ever posted in this newsgroup. Nevertheless it is most common views on the eurpean "real politics" here on east. You do not like that? Well... We do not expect any better from our "partners". The one thing that characterised Chamberlain's government was the view that virtually anything was preferable to fighting a war. But one thing, big war between all and USSR in 1939. Hey Keith, what's was the british goal until sept 39. Right? In august 1939 there were two states who were practicing aggresive attacks against its neibours namely Germany and Poland, and both were united in pathological hate of USSR. Oh puleeze, it wasnt Poland that invaded Lituania, Latvia, Estonia and Finland. Lituania, Latvia, Estonia officially invited russian army and than voted on referendum to join USSR. All the rest are just a empty talks. Actually all British colonies were captured even without such kind of formalities. Nobody even asked local population opinions. In any case it was in 1940 when the WWII was going on. Britain army had already invaded many foreign countries and even attacked French NAVY, its former ally. I see no reasons why we russians should behaive any better when enemies were in front of us. In 1939, official peace time, as I said there were two states who were practicing aggresive attacks against its neibours namely Germany and Poland. With both of them British goverment was trying to make some sort of tricky deals. Stalin signed a defensive pact with Hitler. That allowed him to 'defensively' invade and annexe the Baltic States, In 1940 and with all neccessary formalities, like deal to invite russian army and referendum. No matter what but all formalities were done properly. Finland It was not annexed, although it could be. Why is that? We just moved borders a bit further from Leningrad and leased a few islands to protect Leningrad from the sea. BTW these borders are internationally accepted now including by UK. and Poland Polish state voluntarily seased to exist on Sept 16 when Polish goverment cowardly escaped to Rumania. If not USSR germany would occupy that part of Poland. So what choice Stalin had? However in 45 he (stalin) voluntarily restored Polish state. why is that? Mr. Halifax signed aggresive pact with Poland. That caused Britain to declare war on Germany after Germany invaded Poland Hoping for Polish resitence. I can imagine their degree of british surprise of speed of Polish goverment escape from the battle field. But it was alrady too late. Both had secret protocols. Feel the difference. Good advice, why don't you take it. So Keith, you do not deny any more the very existence of the secret protocol in Btitish international practice dealing with aggressor states. Tell me know why Stalin would have to behaive any better than others did? Michael |
#35
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"Michael Petukhov" wrote in message om... But one thing, big war between all and USSR in 1939. Hey Keith, what's was the british goal until sept 39. Peace Right? Lituania, Latvia, Estonia officially invited russian army and than voted on referendum to join USSR. Michael if you really believe this you are beyond hope. Keith |
#36
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"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"Michael Petukhov" wrote in message om... But one thing, big war between all and USSR in 1939. Hey Keith, what's was the british goal until sept 39. Peace Tell this **** to somebody else. Agreement with Stalin in 38 -39 would 100% guarantee peace in europe, but brits prefered to "pacify" Hitler causing millions of deaths. Right? Lituania, Latvia, Estonia officially invited russian army and than voted on referendum to join USSR. Michael if you really believe this you are beyond hope. cheap demagogy. Whether you like it or not the aggrements and the referendum are historical facts and it will stay forever. Michael Keith |
#37
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Lituania, Latvia, Estonia officially invited russian army and
than voted on referendum to join USSR. Michael if you really believe this you are beyond hope. cheap demagogy. Whether you like it or not the aggrements and the referendum are historical facts and it will stay forever. For starters, I'd sure like to see the document where the Baltic countries "officially invited" Stalin's Red Army to their terri- tories. Wonder what the _heck_ would've they invite them for? In reality though, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finland were given flat out ultimatums with 48 hour timeframes for "partnership treaties" to allow military bases with overpowering Soviet military numbers, or be considered Russia's enemies, face war and be overrun by Soviet forces in several times the manpower (not to mention hard- ware) that was already stationed near their borders. Since the Western allies were at war and quite busy themselves at this point, and the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact (existance of which the Soviets had denied well into the 1990ies, but the originals not to mention official copies of which have been found) gave free hands by Hitler to Stalin to do with Baltics/Finland as he wishes, there was no help expected from Germany either. So the governments of the Baltic states made the grave mistake and accepted the terms of the ultimatums. Unfortunately, by at- tempting to avoid war and save lives by choosing not to attempt military resistance (they did *not* consult with their nations nor even considered military resistance against enemy 100 times their size), they actually settled the grounds of the 50-year old occupation that followed, and allowed people with misconceptions such as yours to even exist. Fortunately, Finland (who received the ultimatum last) witnessed the fate of the Baltic states and knew better -- they refused, and as a result, indeed faced their bloody Winter War, but instead of being turned into the Finnish SSR they were able to keep their independence despite losing some of their territory in the end. In the Baltics, after a few months (in 1940) the Soviet government quoted some BS as grounds for "breaking" the "partnership treaties", demanded _unlimited_ number troops to be stationed in the countries (in case with Estonia, 90,000 vs 15,000 of Estonia's own army), and flat out demanded for new, "Soviet-friendly" government to be installed, this time with just 8 hours to comply. Being surrounded and outnumbered by enemy troops in their own country, they complied again. Communist "revolutions" were staged (I loved a photo from that day in Tallinn with a column of "revolutionaries" marching up to the government buildings, which many newspapers printed.. after cropping away the Soviet tanks that lined the crowd from both sides, that is), Stalinist-style "elections" were held for the puppet government (with only Soviet-approved communists as candidates), which in turn declared the countries Soviet Socialist Republics and "pleaded" access to Soviet Union a few months later. It's worth mentioning that despite all that stuff that took place in the Baltics 1940 being unconstitutional, illegal under inter- national law and with utmost clarity against the will of the people.. there *never* were *any*, not even obviously fabricated Communist-style, referendums neither about allowing Soviet bases in the countries, nor about joining the Soviet Union. If you're quoting Soviet history books, you might as well quote THOSE right. |
#38
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"Michael Petukhov" wrote cheap demagogy. Whether you like it or not the aggrements and the referendum are historical facts and it will stay forever. Sure. Just like you 'invite' a mugger to share the contents of your wallet. Pete |
#39
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#40
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pigdog wrote in message ...
Lituania, Latvia, Estonia officially invited russian army and than voted on referendum to join USSR. Michael if you really believe this you are beyond hope. cheap demagogy. Whether you like it or not the aggrements and the referendum are historical facts and it will stay forever. For starters, I'd sure like to see the document where the Baltic countries "officially invited" Stalin's Red Army to their terri- tories. The official agreement was signed with soviet military bases allowed in, period The text is not secret and can be found if you want. Moreover I am sure you have seen that. am I right? Wonder what the _heck_ would've they invite them for? There could be many reasons. Poland and Germany for instance had official territorial demands to Lithuania. But three smalls had borders with three europen powerfull military powers and they new that neutral status will no be allowed. That's why I guess. In reality though, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finland were given flat out ultimatums with 48 hour timeframes for "partnership treaties" to allow military bases with overpowering Soviet military numbers, or be considered Russia's enemies, face war and be overrun by Soviet forces in several times the manpower (not to mention hard- ware) that was already stationed near their borders. What ultimatums? They were politely offered a deal. And decided they have better to sign it. That's all. Since the Western allies were at war and quite busy themselves at this point, and the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact (existance of which the Soviets had denied well into the 1990ies, What? It was published immidetaly, without secret protocol certainly, exactly because it was a secret protocol. but the originals not to mention official copies of which have been found) Although no originals are found so far, and available copies have marks of fake. Nerver mind, though. I ask you what is so bad about this protocol? Two states defined its respective "spheres of invluence" in a very hypothetical case of political and economical restructure of Poland state. That's all. Absolutely legal and after all western states done toward USSR in 1938-39, 100% moral act towards those states and Poland. gave free hands by Hitler to Stalin to do with Baltics/Finland as he wishes, there was no help expected from Germany either. So what? Hitler was indepedent of USSR and as such had free hands. It was not in Stalin power to forbid something to Hitler. Stalin got a deal protecting (at that time) its own country and a few neibouring countries of interest against German and Polish invasion. 100% legal, moral and necessary steps. So the governments of the Baltic states made the grave mistake and accepted the terms of the ultimatums. So you admit they accepted terms. Good. What's the problem? Unfortunately, by at- tempting to avoid war and save lives by choosing not to attempt military resistance (they did *not* consult with their nations nor even considered military resistance against enemy 100 times their size), they actually settled the grounds of the 50-year old occupation that followed, and allowed people with misconceptions such as yours to even exist. Were Swedish rule over Baltics in 17 century and russian rule in 18 and 19 centuries an occupation as well? These three smalls were always under someones occupation. It is their normal state of business. They economically, politically and military cannot be indepedent and the only thing they can do is to sell themself to someone who pays more at any given moment. This sort of business includes certain inconviniences like occupations or even deportations. Fortunately, Finland (who received the ultimatum last) witnessed the fate of the Baltic states and knew better -- they refused, and as a result, indeed faced their bloody Winter War, but instead of being turned into the Finnish SSR they were able to keep their independence despite losing some of their territory in the end. True to some extend. They did not accept and they fought resulted in some sort of independence. BTW why do not you ask yourslef why Stalin did not occupied Finland in 1944 and did not convert it into Finish SSR? He had all means and excuses for that? After all Finland joint Hitler in 1941. So why is that? What is your theory? As for me I believe it was true Stalin's crime. In the Baltics, after a few months (in 1940) the Soviet government quoted some BS as grounds for "breaking" the "partnership treaties", demanded _unlimited_ number troops to be stationed in the countries (in case with Estonia, 90,000 vs 15,000 of Estonia's own army), and flat out demanded for new, "Soviet-friendly" government to be installed, this time with just 8 hours to comply. Being surrounded and outnumbered by enemy troops in their own country, they complied again. Communist "revolutions" were staged (I loved a photo from that day in Tallinn with a column of "revolutionaries" marching up to the government buildings, which many newspapers printed.. after cropping away the Soviet tanks that lined the crowd from both sides, that is), Stalinist-style "elections" were held for the puppet government (with only Soviet-approved communists as candidates), which in turn declared the countries Soviet Socialist Republics and "pleaded" access to Soviet Union a few months later. OK? What fraction of population came and vote for that? How do you know that majority did not want exactly that? Oh, I see those were Stalinist-style "elections". So if it was British-styled "election" there would an opposite result. Is that what do you really mean? It's worth mentioning that despite all that stuff that took place in the Baltics 1940 being unconstitutional, illegal under inter- national law and with utmost clarity against the will of the people.. there *never* were *any*, not even obviously fabricated Communist-style, referendums neither about allowing Soviet bases in the countries, nor about joining the Soviet Union. If you're quoting Soviet history books, you might as well quote THOSE right. Well baltic countries separation from USSR was also unconstitutional. Before that was unconstitutional 1917, Swedes also believed that Baltics was their integral crown lands just before Poltava battle before that there were poles, russians, germans and one god knows who else. So what? Tell us the true. You simply hate only russians and therefore whatsoever they did wrongly or correctly is unconstitutional and illegal. Am I right? Michael |
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