A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

ADSB out in tow planes



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old June 3rd 18, 02:01 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
waremark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 377
Default ADSB out in tow planes

Does Foreflight run on Android? In Europe we don't have Foreflight. Instead we have SkyDemon, an outstanding app for GA which I believe is comparable to Foreflight. SkyDemon runs equally well on Android or iOs devices, and can accept an input from Powerflarm. The SkyDemon folk market the use of PF for traffic awareness to GA pilots.

It is rather cheaper and simpler to use an Android tablet with the free to use XC App and PF than to go down the iOs route. But if Foreflight does not run on Android I suppose you afe stuck with an iPad cor GA flight planning and nav. If so, i am grateful to SkyDemon for giving us the option of Android.

BTW, I rate the Oudie very highly. It is extremely flexible- which is a strength for power users and which is difficult for those who want a turnkey solution.
  #32  
Old June 3rd 18, 04:05 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,403
Default ADSB out in tow planes

ForeFlight is iOS only and they seem proud of that and how being focused on a single platform helps them. And it may, it's very impressive software. What is most impressive is how much damage they have done to Garmin in the GA EFB/portable device market. Now coming to Europe. https://foreflight.com/europe

On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 6:01:36 PM UTC-7, waremark wrote:
Does Foreflight run on Android? In Europe we don't have Foreflight. Instead we have SkyDemon, an outstanding app for GA which I believe is comparable to Foreflight. SkyDemon runs equally well on Android or iOs devices, and can accept an input from Powerflarm. The SkyDemon folk market the use of PF for traffic awareness to GA pilots.

It is rather cheaper and simpler to use an Android tablet with the free to use XC App and PF than to go down the iOs route. But if Foreflight does not run on Android I suppose you afe stuck with an iPad cor GA flight planning and nav. If so, i am grateful to SkyDemon for giving us the option of Android.

BTW, I rate the Oudie very highly. It is extremely flexible- which is a strength for power users and which is difficult for those who want a turnkey solution.


  #33  
Old June 3rd 18, 06:26 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,134
Default ADSB out in tow planes

How does SkyDemon get Flarm information into an iOS device?

I am a power user, but I would rather spend that power doing useful things, than making SYM work.

On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 6:01:36 PM UTC-7, waremark wrote:
Does Foreflight run on Android? In Europe we don't have Foreflight. Instead we have SkyDemon, an outstanding app for GA which I believe is comparable to Foreflight. SkyDemon runs equally well on Android or iOs devices, and can accept an input from Powerflarm. The SkyDemon folk market the use of PF for traffic awareness to GA pilots.

It is rather cheaper and simpler to use an Android tablet with the free to use XC App and PF than to go down the iOs route. But if Foreflight does not run on Android I suppose you afe stuck with an iPad cor GA flight planning and nav. If so, i am grateful to SkyDemon for giving us the option of Android.

BTW, I rate the Oudie very highly. It is extremely flexible- which is a strength for power users and which is difficult for those who want a turnkey solution.


  #34  
Old June 3rd 18, 06:38 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,439
Default ADSB out in tow planes

On Friday, June 1, 2018 at 10:31:39 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Friday, June 1, 2018 at 6:01:43 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
One of our Pawnees has an ADSB out transponder now. (Evergreen Soaring) We’ve had glider pilots we’re towing that have FLARM ask us to turn off our transponder. We’ve told the glider pilots to turn their FLARM down or off. My recommendation is to either have a switch for your FLARM or know you can turn the volume down to a suitable level.

The question I have is does FLARM show up on ADSB in?


As discussed here before the solution to spurious PowerFLARM alerts in the glider to the towplane ADS-B Out may be to put a PowerFLARM in the towplane so the PowerFLARM in the glider knows it's a towplane and more tolerant of it being close to the glider. There is unfortunately no way for an ADS-B out signal to contain any information to tell PowerFLARM it's a towplane. The FLARM signal does carry that information. it would be great if somebody could experiment with a PowerFLARM portable in the towplane to see if it indeed does solve the issue.

Be careful turning those transponders off, they provide visibility to other aircraft with ADS-B In, TCAS, ATC, all gliders with PowerFLARM with 1090ES In option etc. And if in controlled airspace its a violation of 14 CFR 91.215... and since the towplane is transmitting ADS-B data for all to see and the signal starts going of in flight that may well get noticed. The likely better option if necessary here is for the glider to turn off or turn down the volume on their PowerFLARM while on tow.


If you have a transponder installed, you are required to operate it at all times unless otherwise directed by ATC (i.e. Oshkosh).

Tom
  #35  
Old June 3rd 18, 09:10 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,403
Default ADSB out in tow planes

On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 10:38:50 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Friday, June 1, 2018 at 10:31:39 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Friday, June 1, 2018 at 6:01:43 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
One of our Pawnees has an ADSB out transponder now. (Evergreen Soaring) We’ve had glider pilots we’re towing that have FLARM ask us to turn off our transponder. We’ve told the glider pilots to turn their FLARM down or off. My recommendation is to either have a switch for your FLARM or know you can turn the volume down to a suitable level.

The question I have is does FLARM show up on ADSB in?


As discussed here before the solution to spurious PowerFLARM alerts in the glider to the towplane ADS-B Out may be to put a PowerFLARM in the towplane so the PowerFLARM in the glider knows it's a towplane and more tolerant of it being close to the glider. There is unfortunately no way for an ADS-B out signal to contain any information to tell PowerFLARM it's a towplane.. The FLARM signal does carry that information. it would be great if somebody could experiment with a PowerFLARM portable in the towplane to see if it indeed does solve the issue.

Be careful turning those transponders off, they provide visibility to other aircraft with ADS-B In, TCAS, ATC, all gliders with PowerFLARM with 1090ES In option etc. And if in controlled airspace its a violation of 14 CFR 91.215... and since the towplane is transmitting ADS-B data for all to see and the signal starts going of in flight that may well get noticed. The likely better option if necessary here is for the glider to turn off or turn down the volume on their PowerFLARM while on tow.


If you have a transponder installed, you are required to operate it at all times unless otherwise directed by ATC (i.e. Oshkosh).

Tom


That's not quite accurate, you are required to operate an installed transponder at all times in *controlled airspace*. 14 CFR § 91.215 (c). So they can be turned off in Class G airspace. Maybe a good aviation quiz night question, or BFR question. But to the point, yes turning them off is a bad idea.
  #36  
Old June 3rd 18, 03:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,601
Default ADSB out in tow planes

Foreflight does not run on Android though Garmin Pilot runs on both.Â*
Having run Garmin Pilot on both platforms, I can say that it has more
features in the iOS version than the Android version.Â* It also crashed
quite often on the Android and never (yet, 3 months) on iOS.

On 6/2/2018 7:01 PM, waremark wrote:
Does Foreflight run on Android? In Europe we don't have Foreflight. Instead we have SkyDemon, an outstanding app for GA which I believe is comparable to Foreflight. SkyDemon runs equally well on Android or iOs devices, and can accept an input from Powerflarm. The SkyDemon folk market the use of PF for traffic awareness to GA pilots.

It is rather cheaper and simpler to use an Android tablet with the free to use XC App and PF than to go down the iOs route. But if Foreflight does not run on Android I suppose you afe stuck with an iPad cor GA flight planning and nav. If so, i am grateful to SkyDemon for giving us the option of Android.

BTW, I rate the Oudie very highly. It is extremely flexible- which is a strength for power users and which is difficult for those who want a turnkey solution.


--
Dan, 5J
  #37  
Old June 3rd 18, 07:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,439
Default ADSB out in tow planes

On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 1:10:46 AM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 10:38:50 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Friday, June 1, 2018 at 10:31:39 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Friday, June 1, 2018 at 6:01:43 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
One of our Pawnees has an ADSB out transponder now. (Evergreen Soaring) We’ve had glider pilots we’re towing that have FLARM ask us to turn off our transponder. We’ve told the glider pilots to turn their FLARM down or off. My recommendation is to either have a switch for your FLARM or know you can turn the volume down to a suitable level.

The question I have is does FLARM show up on ADSB in?

As discussed here before the solution to spurious PowerFLARM alerts in the glider to the towplane ADS-B Out may be to put a PowerFLARM in the towplane so the PowerFLARM in the glider knows it's a towplane and more tolerant of it being close to the glider. There is unfortunately no way for an ADS-B out signal to contain any information to tell PowerFLARM it's a towplane. The FLARM signal does carry that information. it would be great if somebody could experiment with a PowerFLARM portable in the towplane to see if it indeed does solve the issue.

Be careful turning those transponders off, they provide visibility to other aircraft with ADS-B In, TCAS, ATC, all gliders with PowerFLARM with 1090ES In option etc. And if in controlled airspace its a violation of 14 CFR 91.215... and since the towplane is transmitting ADS-B data for all to see and the signal starts going of in flight that may well get noticed. The likely better option if necessary here is for the glider to turn off or turn down the volume on their PowerFLARM while on tow.


If you have a transponder installed, you are required to operate it at all times unless otherwise directed by ATC (i.e. Oshkosh).

Tom


That's not quite accurate, you are required to operate an installed transponder at all times in *controlled airspace*. 14 CFR § 91.215 (c). So they can be turned off in Class G airspace. Maybe a good aviation quiz night question, or BFR question. But to the point, yes turning them off is a bad idea.


Wrong: 91.215 states where you MUST operate your transponder - it says nothing about allowing a pilot to turn it off. The matter is addressed in section 4−1−20 of the AIM (https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publ..._10-12-17.pdf), "Transponder Operation:"

4. Transponder and ADS-B Operations in
the Air. EACH PILOT OPERATING AN AIRCRAFT EQUIPPED WITH AN OPERABLE ATC TRANSPONDER, MAINTAINED IN ACCORDANCE WITH 14 CFR SECTION 91.413 OR ADS-B TRANSMITTER, MUST OPERATE THE TRANSPONDER/TRANSMITTER, INCLUDING MODE C/S IF INSTALLED, ON THE APPROPRIATE MODE 3/A CODE OR AS ASSIGNED BY ATC. EACH PERSON OPERATING AN AIRCRAFT EQUIPPED WITH ADS-B OUT MUST OPERATE THIS EQUIPMENT IN HE TRANSMIT MODE AT ALL TIMES WHILE AIRBORNE UNLESS OTHERWISE REQUESTED BY ATC.

Notice the use of ALL CAPS: the FAA is shouting this requirement out at us. Furthermore, the glider involved in the Minden mid-air collision with the Hawker jet was faulted for not operating his transponder (https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.a...A277 A&akey=1) even though they were not in controlled airspace at the time.

Tom
  #38  
Old June 3rd 18, 11:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
waremark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 377
Default ADSB out in tow planes

Your hatred of the superb Oudie continues to mystify me.

For anyone unclear about this, SeeYou Mobile is excellent soaring software. Its makers sell several versions of a hardware device which runs it, the Oudie, and it also runs on third party Window CE devices - all now old and obsolete. The makers have presumably chosen not to port it to Android because there are at least three versions of soaring software for Android which are free to use. Whether or not SYM is better than the free software, I don't expect pilots would choose it over the free options.

iGlide which Jon prefers probably has the easiest interface to learn at the expense of reduced flexibility.
  #39  
Old June 3rd 18, 11:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,134
Default ADSB out in tow planes

On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 11:15:00 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 1:10:46 AM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 10:38:50 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Friday, June 1, 2018 at 10:31:39 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Friday, June 1, 2018 at 6:01:43 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
One of our Pawnees has an ADSB out transponder now. (Evergreen Soaring) We’ve had glider pilots we’re towing that have FLARM ask us to turn off our transponder. We’ve told the glider pilots to turn their FLARM down or off. My recommendation is to either have a switch for your FLARM or know you can turn the volume down to a suitable level.

The question I have is does FLARM show up on ADSB in?

As discussed here before the solution to spurious PowerFLARM alerts in the glider to the towplane ADS-B Out may be to put a PowerFLARM in the towplane so the PowerFLARM in the glider knows it's a towplane and more tolerant of it being close to the glider. There is unfortunately no way for an ADS-B out signal to contain any information to tell PowerFLARM it's a towplane. The FLARM signal does carry that information. it would be great if somebody could experiment with a PowerFLARM portable in the towplane to see if it indeed does solve the issue.

Be careful turning those transponders off, they provide visibility to other aircraft with ADS-B In, TCAS, ATC, all gliders with PowerFLARM with 1090ES In option etc. And if in controlled airspace its a violation of 14 CFR 91.215... and since the towplane is transmitting ADS-B data for all to see and the signal starts going of in flight that may well get noticed. The likely better option if necessary here is for the glider to turn off or turn down the volume on their PowerFLARM while on tow.

If you have a transponder installed, you are required to operate it at all times unless otherwise directed by ATC (i.e. Oshkosh).

Tom


That's not quite accurate, you are required to operate an installed transponder at all times in *controlled airspace*. 14 CFR § 91.215 (c). So they can be turned off in Class G airspace. Maybe a good aviation quiz night question, or BFR question. But to the point, yes turning them off is a bad idea.


Wrong: 91.215 states where you MUST operate your transponder - it says nothing about allowing a pilot to turn it off. The matter is addressed in section 4−1−20 of the AIM (https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publ..._10-12-17.pdf), "Transponder Operation:"

4. Transponder and ADS-B Operations in
the Air. EACH PILOT OPERATING AN AIRCRAFT EQUIPPED WITH AN OPERABLE ATC TRANSPONDER, MAINTAINED IN ACCORDANCE WITH 14 CFR SECTION 91.413 OR ADS-B TRANSMITTER, MUST OPERATE THE TRANSPONDER/TRANSMITTER, INCLUDING MODE C/S IF INSTALLED, ON THE APPROPRIATE MODE 3/A CODE OR AS ASSIGNED BY ATC. EACH PERSON OPERATING AN AIRCRAFT EQUIPPED WITH ADS-B OUT MUST OPERATE THIS EQUIPMENT IN HE TRANSMIT MODE AT ALL TIMES WHILE AIRBORNE UNLESS OTHERWISE REQUESTED BY ATC.

Notice the use of ALL CAPS: the FAA is shouting this requirement out at us. Furthermore, the glider involved in the Minden mid-air collision with the Hawker jet was faulted for not operating his transponder (https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.a...A277 A&akey=1) even though they were not in controlled airspace at the time.

Tom


And yet, the regulation does not say that. The relevant section 91.215 (c) is quoted here in it's entirety:

"(c) Transponder-on operation. While in the airspace as specified in paragraph (b) of this section or in all controlled airspace, each person operating an air- craft equipped with an operable ATC transponder maintained in accordance with §91.413 of this part shall operate the transponder, including Mode C equipment if installed, and shall reply on the appropriate code or as assigned by ATC."

The airspace specified in paragraph (b) is controlled airspace. The AIM can say whatever it likes, the regulation is clearly worded and is the law. I'd agree that keeping it on at all times is a good idea, and do myself. But it is not required outside of controlled airspace.
  #40  
Old June 4th 18, 12:37 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,439
Default ADSB out in tow planes

On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 3:55:32 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 11:15:00 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 1:10:46 AM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 10:38:50 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Friday, June 1, 2018 at 10:31:39 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Friday, June 1, 2018 at 6:01:43 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
One of our Pawnees has an ADSB out transponder now. (Evergreen Soaring) We’ve had glider pilots we’re towing that have FLARM ask us to turn off our transponder. We’ve told the glider pilots to turn their FLARM down or off. My recommendation is to either have a switch for your FLARM or know you can turn the volume down to a suitable level..

The question I have is does FLARM show up on ADSB in?

As discussed here before the solution to spurious PowerFLARM alerts in the glider to the towplane ADS-B Out may be to put a PowerFLARM in the towplane so the PowerFLARM in the glider knows it's a towplane and more tolerant of it being close to the glider. There is unfortunately no way for an ADS-B out signal to contain any information to tell PowerFLARM it's a towplane. The FLARM signal does carry that information. it would be great if somebody could experiment with a PowerFLARM portable in the towplane to see if it indeed does solve the issue.

Be careful turning those transponders off, they provide visibility to other aircraft with ADS-B In, TCAS, ATC, all gliders with PowerFLARM with 1090ES In option etc. And if in controlled airspace its a violation of 14 CFR 91.215... and since the towplane is transmitting ADS-B data for all to see and the signal starts going of in flight that may well get noticed. The likely better option if necessary here is for the glider to turn off or turn down the volume on their PowerFLARM while on tow.

If you have a transponder installed, you are required to operate it at all times unless otherwise directed by ATC (i.e. Oshkosh).

Tom

That's not quite accurate, you are required to operate an installed transponder at all times in *controlled airspace*. 14 CFR § 91.215 (c). So they can be turned off in Class G airspace. Maybe a good aviation quiz night question, or BFR question. But to the point, yes turning them off is a bad idea.


Wrong: 91.215 states where you MUST operate your transponder - it says nothing about allowing a pilot to turn it off. The matter is addressed in section 4−1−20 of the AIM (https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publ..._10-12-17.pdf), "Transponder Operation:"

4. Transponder and ADS-B Operations in
the Air. EACH PILOT OPERATING AN AIRCRAFT EQUIPPED WITH AN OPERABLE ATC TRANSPONDER, MAINTAINED IN ACCORDANCE WITH 14 CFR SECTION 91.413 OR ADS-B TRANSMITTER, MUST OPERATE THE TRANSPONDER/TRANSMITTER, INCLUDING MODE C/S IF INSTALLED, ON THE APPROPRIATE MODE 3/A CODE OR AS ASSIGNED BY ATC. EACH PERSON OPERATING AN AIRCRAFT EQUIPPED WITH ADS-B OUT MUST OPERATE THIS EQUIPMENT IN HE TRANSMIT MODE AT ALL TIMES WHILE AIRBORNE UNLESS OTHERWISE REQUESTED BY ATC.

Notice the use of ALL CAPS: the FAA is shouting this requirement out at us. Furthermore, the glider involved in the Minden mid-air collision with the Hawker jet was faulted for not operating his transponder (https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.a...A277 A&akey=1) even though they were not in controlled airspace at the time.

Tom


And yet, the regulation does not say that. The relevant section 91.215 (c) is quoted here in it's entirety:

"(c) Transponder-on operation. While in the airspace as specified in paragraph (b) of this section or in all controlled airspace, each person operating an air- craft equipped with an operable ATC transponder maintained in accordance with §91.413 of this part shall operate the transponder, including Mode C equipment if installed, and shall reply on the appropriate code or as assigned by ATC."

The airspace specified in paragraph (b) is controlled airspace. The AIM can say whatever it likes, the regulation is clearly worded and is the law. I'd agree that keeping it on at all times is a good idea, and do myself. But it is not required outside of controlled airspace.


The AIM clearly states that it must be on in no uncertain terms (did you not read that?), so there is no wiggle room as far as the FAA is concerned. There are times when ATC will direct pilots to turn off their transponders, such as the EAA fly-in at Oshkosh, but they must be on otherwise. 91.215 nowhere gives the pilot the discretion of turning off the transponder in uncontrolled airspace. And the glider pilot was, indeed, found liable in the Minden mid-air.

Tom
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Flarm reporting my own ADSB Out [email protected] Soaring 14 March 22nd 18 04:31 AM
PowerFlarm for ADSB source? [email protected] Soaring 7 February 24th 15 06:01 PM
Stratus / Foreflight ADSB 6X Soaring 5 December 17th 13 10:34 AM
ADSB is only the start... Martin Gregorie[_5_] Soaring 0 October 1st 09 01:27 PM
Santa and ADSB Mal Soaring 0 December 15th 06 08:42 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.