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SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available



 
 
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  #11  
Old December 9th 18, 12:41 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tom Kelley #711
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Posts: 306
Default SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available

On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 4:05:07 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
Tom,

Not a typo.

We picked a round-ish number. Also, some expressed a concern over going smaller right away, so the intermediate step is to go 0.50 miles instead of 0.3107 miles so pilots can get a little more used to the different traffic patterns when converging on a smaller target. Pilots will need to develop slightly different tyrnpoint habits. Best not to learn the hard way if we can avoid it.

Obviously there’s a bigger question about how to handle the pretty clear US pilot preference for miles, feet and knots and whether you round some of the metric numbers to some number of decimal places in English units or mandate that everyone fly in a mixed feet/kilometers, knots/kph environment. No final decision on that.

Andy Blackburn


Well, the poll results wanted a FAI AT TP, not a USA RC adjusted TP. But thank you for at least answering my question and the RC's reasoning.

Last question.
Now, will you score to center of TP for a AT with just one fix inside of circle as they do world wide using the FAI rules or are you going to score the fix inside the AT TP which gives you greatest distance flown? I might have missed that on how it will be scored.

Again Andy, thank you. When you get your new toy flying get us some pictures!

Best. #711.



  #12  
Old December 9th 18, 02:04 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy Blackburn[_3_]
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Posts: 608
Default SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available

On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 3:41:54 PM UTC-8, Tom Kelley #711 wrote:
On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 4:05:07 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
Tom,

Not a typo.

We picked a round-ish number. Also, some expressed a concern over going smaller right away, so the intermediate step is to go 0.50 miles instead of 0.3107 miles so pilots can get a little more used to the different traffic patterns when converging on a smaller target. Pilots will need to develop slightly different tyrnpoint habits. Best not to learn the hard way if we can avoid it.

Obviously there’s a bigger question about how to handle the pretty clear US pilot preference for miles, feet and knots and whether you round some of the metric numbers to some number of decimal places in English units or mandate that everyone fly in a mixed feet/kilometers, knots/kph environment. No final decision on that.

Andy Blackburn


Well, the poll results wanted a FAI AT TP, not a USA RC adjusted TP. But thank you for at least answering my question and the RC's reasoning.

Last question.
Now, will you score to center of TP for a AT with just one fix inside of circle as they do world wide using the FAI rules or are you going to score the fix inside the AT TP which gives you greatest distance flown? I might have missed that on how it will be scored.

Again Andy, thank you. When you get your new toy flying get us some pictures!

Best. #711.


We're taking this one step at a time Tom. We realize people will have lots of questions and there will be lots of different views expressed along the way. We certainly want to hear it, but we don't want to "knee jerk" answers until we work through how things actually will work in practice - from contest registration to transmission of results to all the systems that use that information.*

Next big step in the process is posting of the proposed rules for 2019.

For the Rules Committee
Andy Blackburn
  #13  
Old December 9th 18, 05:42 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Posts: 962
Default SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available

On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 8:04:16 PM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:
On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 3:41:54 PM UTC-8, Tom Kelley #711 wrote:
On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 4:05:07 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
Tom,

Not a typo.

We picked a round-ish number. Also, some expressed a concern over going smaller right away, so the intermediate step is to go 0.50 miles instead of 0.3107 miles so pilots can get a little more used to the different traffic patterns when converging on a smaller target. Pilots will need to develop slightly different tyrnpoint habits. Best not to learn the hard way if we can avoid it.

Obviously there’s a bigger question about how to handle the pretty clear US pilot preference for miles, feet and knots and whether you round some of the metric numbers to some number of decimal places in English units or mandate that everyone fly in a mixed feet/kilometers, knots/kph environment. No final decision on that.

Andy Blackburn


Well, the poll results wanted a FAI AT TP, not a USA RC adjusted TP. But thank you for at least answering my question and the RC's reasoning.

Last question.
Now, will you score to center of TP for a AT with just one fix inside of circle as they do world wide using the FAI rules or are you going to score the fix inside the AT TP which gives you greatest distance flown? I might have missed that on how it will be scored.

Again Andy, thank you. When you get your new toy flying get us some pictures!

Best. #711.


We're taking this one step at a time Tom. We realize people will have lots of questions and there will be lots of different views expressed along the way. We certainly want to hear it, but we don't want to "knee jerk" answers until we work through how things actually will work in practice - from contest registration to transmission of results to all the systems that use that information.*

Next big step in the process is posting of the proposed rules for 2019.

For the Rules Committee
Andy Blackburn


A suggestion I wish you would consider... throw the pro-FAI guys a bone. Make our AT task (for 2019) an FAI style AT task. Line start, no altitude limits, 500m radius tag & go turns (fixed scored distance). Score it according to US speed/distance/completion ratio rules so it doesn't get over weighted relative to other tasks in same contest.


best,
Evan Ludeman / T8
  #14  
Old December 10th 18, 01:31 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tony[_5_]
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Posts: 1,965
Default SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available

At least get rid of the criss cross crash insanity.
  #15  
Old December 10th 18, 04:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 56
Default SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available

I hope the "pro-FAI guys" realize that the adoption of the FAI rules will necessitate the elimination of the "Airfield Bonus".

I'm looking forward to the old George Moffat philosophy where a death dive to a landout in the boonies to pick up a few points is preferable to a landing at a safe airfield below.

Oh, and no more "staring out the cylinder top" nonsense either.

Guy Byars

  #16  
Old December 10th 18, 05:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 2,124
Default SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available

On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 10:39:44 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I hope the "pro-FAI guys" realize that the adoption of the FAI rules will necessitate the elimination of the "Airfield Bonus".

I'm looking forward to the old George Moffat philosophy where a death dive to a landout in the boonies to pick up a few points is preferable to a landing at a safe airfield below.

Oh, and no more "staring out the cylinder top" nonsense either.

Guy Byars


Or that safety finish. "Real" pilots get to the finish.
UH
  #17  
Old December 10th 18, 05:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Posts: 962
Default SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available

On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 11:25:58 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 10:39:44 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I hope the "pro-FAI guys" realize that the adoption of the FAI rules will necessitate the elimination of the "Airfield Bonus".

I'm looking forward to the old George Moffat philosophy where a death dive to a landout in the boonies to pick up a few points is preferable to a landing at a safe airfield below.

Oh, and no more "staring out the cylinder top" nonsense either.

Guy Byars


Or that safety finish. "Real" pilots get to the finish.
UH




I'm not really a "pro-FAI" guy but I've found myself persuaded by the guys that are.

The new for 2018 78.5 square mile area start (if you can reach MSH) that degenerates into a 31.4 mile circumference ring start (if you cannot) is what changed my opinion.

The US "beer can" start has always had (in my view) too much tactical importance, especially in crummy conditions. The change from "half a can" to "whole can" turned out to be a half beer too many for me. Some CD's are especially good at calling an MSH that you might, or might not be able to reach and guessing wrong (as a contestant) can be costly!

As far as the safety finish goes, I'm told that t-storm likelihood is handled (correctly, if the weather guy and task setter are on their game) by a larger ring finish (in the initial task call).

Moreover... since US Nats are getting FAI ranking points *now*, what would prevent us from keeping things like the existing safety finish and airport bonus?

Thanks for all you do, Guy & Hank.

best,
Evan / T8
  #18  
Old December 10th 18, 06:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]
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Posts: 321
Default SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available

On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 12:10:05 AM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:
Minutes from the SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting are now posted on the SSA website:

https://www.ssa.org/files/member/201...2012-07-18.pdf

There are many detailed items in the minutes. For clarity of communication, the introduction to the most significant item (#19 in the minutes, starting on page 9) is reproduced below:

RC intends to move towards FAI-based rules capable of being scored by SeeYou or similar commercial tasking/scoring software and/or WinScore by 2021.

This will happen in three steps:

2019
- Make adjustments to US Rules to add FAI-like AT turn cylinders and finish configuration.
- Develop and begin execution of plans for 2020 contest trials and longer-term transition – rules, local procedures, training and change management, handicaps (esp. Sports Class), PRL and UST implications, systems integration with SSA.org, SoaringSpot, FAI ranking, financial implications.

2020
- Run 3-4 trial contests (including 2 Nationals) under a US rule system based on FAI – contests should be of sufficient size to reach a significant proportion of the pilot community, particularly the most active pilots
- Collect detailed pilot feedback and input from trials

2021
- Roll out of “final” rules and systems, infrastructure, training, fees, etc. based on trial system plus adjustments based on learnings/pilot feedback/refinement.

For the Competition Rules Committee
Andy Blackburn, Chair


Respectfully, neither Guy's or UH's comments are exactly correct. It is perfectly acceptable to have both an airfield bonus and safety finish. Note in the local procedures for the WWGC they provide for limiting start height and speed.
  #19  
Old December 10th 18, 06:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]
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Posts: 321
Default SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available

On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 12:37:54 PM UTC-5, John Godfrey (QT) wrote:
On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 12:10:05 AM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:
Minutes from the SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting are now posted on the SSA website:

https://www.ssa.org/files/member/201...2012-07-18.pdf

There are many detailed items in the minutes. For clarity of communication, the introduction to the most significant item (#19 in the minutes, starting on page 9) is reproduced below:

RC intends to move towards FAI-based rules capable of being scored by SeeYou or similar commercial tasking/scoring software and/or WinScore by 2021.

This will happen in three steps:

2019
- Make adjustments to US Rules to add FAI-like AT turn cylinders and finish configuration.
- Develop and begin execution of plans for 2020 contest trials and longer-term transition – rules, local procedures, training and change management, handicaps (esp. Sports Class), PRL and UST implications, systems integration with SSA.org, SoaringSpot, FAI ranking, financial implications..

2020
- Run 3-4 trial contests (including 2 Nationals) under a US rule system based on FAI – contests should be of sufficient size to reach a significant proportion of the pilot community, particularly the most active pilots
- Collect detailed pilot feedback and input from trials

2021
- Roll out of “final” rules and systems, infrastructure, training, fees, etc. based on trial system plus adjustments based on learnings/pilot feedback/refinement.

For the Competition Rules Committee
Andy Blackburn, Chair


Respectfully, neither Guy's or UH's comments are exactly correct. It is perfectly acceptable to have both an airfield bonus and safety finish. Note in the local procedures for the WWGC they provide for limiting start height and speed.


The WWGC local procedures are worth a read and to see the variations (additions/changes) from what is in SC3a http://wwgc.com.au/downloads/Club%20...les%202019.pdf
  #20  
Old December 10th 18, 09:40 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 2,124
Default SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available

On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 12:37:54 PM UTC-5, John Godfrey (QT) wrote:
On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 12:10:05 AM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:
Minutes from the SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting are now posted on the SSA website:

https://www.ssa.org/files/member/201...2012-07-18.pdf

There are many detailed items in the minutes. For clarity of communication, the introduction to the most significant item (#19 in the minutes, starting on page 9) is reproduced below:

RC intends to move towards FAI-based rules capable of being scored by SeeYou or similar commercial tasking/scoring software and/or WinScore by 2021.

This will happen in three steps:

2019
- Make adjustments to US Rules to add FAI-like AT turn cylinders and finish configuration.
- Develop and begin execution of plans for 2020 contest trials and longer-term transition – rules, local procedures, training and change management, handicaps (esp. Sports Class), PRL and UST implications, systems integration with SSA.org, SoaringSpot, FAI ranking, financial implications..

2020
- Run 3-4 trial contests (including 2 Nationals) under a US rule system based on FAI – contests should be of sufficient size to reach a significant proportion of the pilot community, particularly the most active pilots
- Collect detailed pilot feedback and input from trials

2021
- Roll out of “final” rules and systems, infrastructure, training, fees, etc. based on trial system plus adjustments based on learnings/pilot feedback/refinement.

For the Competition Rules Committee
Andy Blackburn, Chair


Respectfully, neither Guy's or UH's comments are exactly correct. It is perfectly acceptable to have both an airfield bonus and safety finish. Note in the local procedures for the WWGC they provide for limiting start height and speed.


True- organizers MAY limit start height and speed. Or they may not
In contrasting the 2 rules sets, GFB is correct. There is no start out the top, there is no airfield bonus, and there is no safety finish. It is also true that "local procedures" can provide for many adjustments to meet local needs, subject to what may conflict with the intent of SC3a and capabilities provided in the scoring program selected.
UH
 




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