What do you do in the real world?

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Mxsmanic wrote:
ArtP writes:

You might have to explain why you accepted the route if you knew you
could not fly it.

Many routes will eventually intersect terrain if there are mountains nearby.
Nevertheless, you might well accept the route if you expect to be given a new
heading or altitude before you get near terrain. If your radio fails,
however, the situation changes.


Radio failure has nothing to do with what the OP asked. He
asked about the routing should he have been IMC. ArtP's inference still
stands. If you are IMC and accepted a route that you may not have been
able to fly, you will have some explaining to do about why you accepted
a route that could put you into that mountainside.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.wizard.com/~tyketto
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In article ,
Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:03:57 -0800, Ron Garret
wrote:

Last night I flew from SJC to VNY. To my astonishment I was cleared
vectors to SNS, then direct VNY (despite having filed a more standard
routing) at 9000 feet. I knew perfectly well that the routing was going
to change because I've done that route a zillion times, and indeed, near
Bakersfield they switched me over to the standard LHS, LYNXX8 arrival,
followed by vectors to the ILS RWY 16R.

My question is: what should I have done if I'd been in IMC and lost comm
before they changed my routing? By the book I should have continued to
fly my clearance, which would have run me into a mountain around GMN, so
that's probably not the right answer. Viable possibilities seem to
include:

1. Divert (or climb) just enough to avoid the terrain around GMN, fly
to VNY, and commence an approach from there.

2. As above, but vector myself for the ILS before reaching VNY.

3&4 - as above but fly to LHS and the LYNXX8 arrival.

5. Divert to the nearest airport with an IAP.

My aircraft is /G so I know pretty much exactly where I am at all times.

rg


"By the book", the route you fly should be the last clearance.

Yes, I know that. That is why the subject of this post is "What do you
do in the real world?"

I don't understand, however, why you would run into a mountain if you are
following the altitude rules of the "lost-comm" regulations. Is your
aircraft not able to climb to the minimum IFR altitude for your route?

The assigned route was not on an airway, and so there is no minimum IFR
altitude on the route. The first 250 miles or so are over pretty flat
terrain. It is only shortly before you get to the destination that the
mountains begin.

rg

In article ,
ArtP wrote:

On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 06:51:48 -0500, Ron Rosenfeld
wrote:

Is your
aircraft not able to climb to the minimum IFR altitude for your route? If
that is the case, you have an emergency situation and can do whatever you
need to do.

You might have to explain why you accepted the route if you knew you
could not fly it.

Of course I could fly it, just not at the initially assigned altitude.
That is why my option #1 was to climb.

rg

In article ,
Ron Garret wrote:

The assigned route was not on an airway, and so there is no minimum IFR
altitude on the route.

Correction (because I know the FAR mavens are going to be all over me
for that one): I should have said, "The minimum IFR altitude is not
easily determined." By the book it's either 1000 or 2000 feet about the
highest obstacle within 4 nautical miles depending on whether or not the
area is designated mountainous. Taking that rule and actually figuring
out where you are supposed to begin to climb and how high (and, more to
the point, where you are supposed to begin to descend, because your
destination is just on the other side of the mountains in this case) is
not such an easy thing to do in flight.

rg

Ron Garret wrote:

The assigned route was not on an airway, and so there is no minimum IFR
altitude on the route.

Not so. If you're off an airway, then the off-route obstacle
clearance altitude (OROCA) applies, and is printed on the LO charts.

The first 250 miles or so are over pretty flat terrain. It is only
shortly before you get to the destination that the mountains begin.

Lost comm minimum altitudes apply per segment, not per leg. So in
this case, you would need to climb when you enter the grid square
containing tall rocks.

- FChE

"Ron Garret" wrote in message ...
In article ,
Ron Garret wrote:

The assigned route was not on an airway, and so there is no minimum IFR
altitude on the route.

Correction (because I know the FAR mavens are going to be all over me
for that one): I should have said, "The minimum IFR altitude is not
easily determined." By the book it's either 1000 or 2000 feet about the
highest obstacle within 4 nautical miles depending on whether or not the
area is designated mountainous. Taking that rule and actually figuring
out where you are supposed to begin to climb and how high (and, more to
the point, where you are supposed to begin to descend, because your
destination is just on the other side of the mountains in this case) is
not such an easy thing to do in flight.


Aren't the Grid MORAs shown on your enroute charts?
You said you are /G equipped, and thus know where you are.

On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 11:38:27 -0800, Ron Garret
wrote:


Of course I could fly it, just not at the initially assigned altitude.
That is why my option #1 was to climb.

All I said was that it was not an option (assuming no emergency)
because you are expected to fly at or above the MEA for the route even
if it is higher than the initially assigned altitude.

A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:

Radio failure has nothing to do with what the OP asked. He
asked about the routing should he have been IMC. ArtP's inference still
stands. If you are IMC and accepted a route that you may not have been
able to fly,

He could fly it just fine, it was a vector. ATC does it all the time
and in reality isn't a route at all as there is no non radar component
to it.


you will have some explaining to do about why you accepted
a route that could put you into that mountainside.

Hogwash. ATC would never vector an airplane if every aircraft refused
because at some point you would hit something. The answer to the
question is if you lose comm you take care of yourself. It is an
emergency situation if terrain is a factor. You do what ever you have
to to avoid terrain/obstructions.

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Newps wrote:


A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:

Radio failure has nothing to do with what the OP asked. He
asked about the routing should he have been IMC. ArtP's inference still
stands. If you are IMC and accepted a route that you may not have been
able to fly,

He could fly it just fine, it was a vector. ATC does it all the time
and in reality isn't a route at all as there is no non radar component
to it.

If it was a vector, that changes the whole story. If it was a
clearance that he wasn't going to be able to accept, then there would
be some questions.

you will have some explaining to do about why you accepted
a route that could put you into that mountainside.

Hogwash. ATC would never vector an airplane if every aircraft refused
because at some point you would hit something. The answer to the
question is if you lose comm you take care of yourself. It is an
emergency situation if terrain is a factor. You do what ever you have
to to avoid terrain/obstructions.

Oh, I agree. ATC would never vector a plane like that, don't
get me wrong. But as the OP had mentioned, if he accepted a routing
that he believed he couldn't fly and the weather was IMC, the question
would have to be asked on why he accepted that routing in the first
place.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.wizard.com/~tyketto
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In article ,
"John R. Copeland" wrote:

"Ron Garret" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ron Garret wrote:

The assigned route was not on an airway, and so there is no minimum IFR
altitude on the route.

Correction (because I know the FAR mavens are going to be all over me
for that one): I should have said, "The minimum IFR altitude is not
easily determined." By the book it's either 1000 or 2000 feet about the
highest obstacle within 4 nautical miles depending on whether or not the
area is designated mountainous. Taking that rule and actually figuring
out where you are supposed to begin to climb and how high (and, more to
the point, where you are supposed to begin to descend, because your
destination is just on the other side of the mountains in this case) is
not such an easy thing to do in flight.


Aren't the Grid MORAs shown on your enroute charts?
You said you are /G equipped, and thus know where you are.

Heh, you know, I had forgotten all about those. I've never had occasion
to use them until now.

rg