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#41
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Seaplane Resurgence?
"TMOliver" wrote:
The awful truth.... Them dannable Tscherman N*zis and the Hirohito's aggressive pursuit of the East Asian Coprosperity Sphere sealed the doom of the flying boat and sea plane by causing we Merkins to pave or at worst lay steel mat over the majority of the Western World's (and some Eastern's too) long flat places. When there were runways everywhere, planes that floated were relegated to niche market status, quaint curiosites in the midst of a dynamic world. Slightly off-topic. When my brother-in-law (then to be) immigrated out here in 1952 it was a 5 day odyssey aboard a flying boat which stopped at all sorts of interesting places along the way. They landed on Lake Victoria in the late afternoon and had to leave very early in the morning because the heat would rob the engines of the required power to lift off. They finally ended up on the Vaal dam just south of Johannesburg. Must have been close to the swansong of the Empire flying boat service. In-flight movie was sliding back your window and watching the herds of animals as you flew over them at a couple of thousand feet. Way back in 1960 I was privileged to watch a French squadron, 27F Flotille, using Martin Marlin flyingboats operating out of the lagoon next to my home. They had flown from Dakar to Langebaan non-stop some 3600 nautical miles which was considered excellent for that time. On their return they used JATO - the first time it was ever used in South Africa - to get airborne. Also doing so at first light and using an enormous run of 5 to 6km run to get airborne. One of the boats suffered a JATO bottle explosion which ripped a substantial hole in her side. It was slipped at Langebaan using the gear from the Sunderland squadron that used to operate there (and which was still in storage there) and a borrowed tractor to get her up the slipway. Eugene L Griessel Old age is when you find yourself using one bend-over to pick up two things. - I usually post only from Sci.Military.Naval - |
#42
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Seaplane Resurgence?
On Mon, 1 Oct 2007 18:51:14 -0500, "TMOliver"
wrote: The awful truth.... Them dannable Tscherman N*zis and the Hirohito's aggressive pursuit of the East Asian Coprosperity Sphere sealed the doom of the flying boat and sea plane by causing we Merkins to pave or at worst lay steel mat over the majority of the Western World's (and some Eastern's too) long flat places. When there were runways everywhere, planes that floated were relegated to niche market status, quaint curiosites in the midst of a dynamic world. Yup, what he said. Floatplanes are romantic as all get out, but lack economic practicality. Maybe someday somebody will figure out how to make money on them the way some folks make big cruise ships pay. Until then they are just a chapter in Naval Aviation (and aviation) history. |
#43
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Seaplane Resurgence?
On Sep 30, 7:06 pm, "Mike Kanze" wrote:
John Keeney, I don't disagree with your conclusion, I just think your grasp of the water situation in the heartland is off. Having lived several years in Cincinnati (on the Ohio River, upriver ~100 miles from Louisville) I have a better grasp than you might think about this. If your experince is limited to the Cincinnati area, I can certainly understand it. The river is but a trickle of what you'll find behind the McAlpin dam at Louisville. The two cities are seaperated by a bit over 100 *air* miles but that is one hell of a drainage. There's not been a seaplane built that couldn't land and depart comfortably from the Ohio River at Louisville Ky. There is no section of the Ohio River flowing past Louisville that is at all aligned with the prevailing winds (roughly NW - SE) in that part of the U.S. Landing a heavily-laden flying boat in such conditions would not be advisable. The pool behind the dam at Louisville is over a mile wide (within a few miles, very much so) and can be sighted down from mid river for over a half dozen miles. A very gentle bend gets you nearly twice that many more. Prevailing winds out on the water are within 10-20 degrees of straight up that first stretch. This may be related to the Indiana bank being high enough to shield it. Like our land roadways, our riverine waterways are very congested with all manner of craft. Let's start with large, multi-barge river tows, and along the way mention such frequent or recurring obstacles as bridges, locks and dams, seasonal water level fluctuations, snags, and especially flotsam - not to mention the all-too-frequent weekend drunk on his jetski, darting unpredictably about the channel. You will recall I did not dispute your conclusion. But large tolls rarely are within several miles of each other (the time it takes to lock through at the dam prevents it). And bridges over the Ohio cluster at major cities: three car & three railway bridges at Louisville, the next closest bridge up-stream is about 35 miles away at Madison. Down-stream, call it 30 miles. Dams, baa, how many dams do you think are between Louisville an Cincinnati? I believe the correct number is 1. Our major rivers either ice over regularly (upper Midwest) or can have ice floes during winter cold snaps at least as far south as the Mississippi - Ohio junction. (I have personally seen folks walk, foolishly, across the Ohio River on winter ice.) I can remember one (1) year that there was ice on the river here sufficent to tempt people to walk upon it. It is even considered enough of a novelty for flow ice to be coming down stream big enough to find to hop in the car to go get a look. So reliable scheduling of commercial seaplane air cargo during part of the year is not an option from Cairo, Illinois north and east. Thunderstorms, which occur at other times of the year, generate major flotsam debris. *A* storm has a trivial effect on the river here. To put flotsam in the water you dump a lot of rain on the water shed up stream to raise the river level. The river will then creast a few days later here carring trash in. River tows are impervious to all but the largest flotsam, and smaller craft can see and avoid. Not so a seaplane that has just alighted. I admit it would be a problem. One of the reasons I agreed with your conclusion. The very biggest reason sea planes won't make a come back is existing airports support more efficent land planes. Ignoring some island out in the ocean with insufficent land area for the airfield, there simply is no justification for regular scheduled seaplane service. |
#44
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Seaplane Resurgence?
On Sep 30, 9:43 pm, Eunometic wrote:
On Sep 30, 1:01 pm, "Mike Kanze" wrote: Longer answer: Attempts at large-scale revival of seaplanes in the U.S. will likely meet the same ends as attempts to revive LTA. a.. Too few suitable seadrome possibilities near most U. S. coastal population centers. And no possibilities at all in the continental heartland, other than the Great Lakes cities like Detroit or Chicago. I would raise two counter arguments to this: a/ The Sea planes could be made 'amphibious' in that case they can operate on airports, perhaps only those with 11000ft runways, and they could then use seaplane ports in locations where a 11000ft runway would be prohibitive due to cost or geography. The seaplane hull has never been as aerodynamic as a land planes: it's less efficent. Now you want to go ahead and add landing gear too? More weight. Now even fewer miles per ton of fuel. b/ Oversize seaplanes could opperate in a niche all by themselves competing for coastal cargo. Possibly, but don't waste effort making them amphibs. c.. Need for major infrastructure improvements (large hangars, ramps, etc.) along increasingly expensive / scarce near-urban .shoreline. Quite serious: floating concrete structures? Good enough for docks. But it's like hydrogen fueled cars: which do you build first; the millions of hydrogen fueling stations or the millions of hydrogen powered cars? If socity hadn't gone done a different econmic track doing both at once might have been worth while but substitues do exist and it's hard to justify the investment for another way of doing the same thing. |
#45
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Seaplane Resurgence?
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#46
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Seaplane Resurgence?
Bill Kambic wrote:
On Mon, 1 Oct 2007 18:51:14 -0500, "TMOliver" wrote: The awful truth.... Them dannable Tscherman N*zis and the Hirohito's aggressive pursuit of the East Asian Coprosperity Sphere sealed the doom of the flying boat and sea plane by causing we Merkins to pave or at worst lay steel mat over the majority of the Western World's (and some Eastern's too) long flat places. When there were runways everywhere, planes that floated were relegated to niche market status, quaint curiosites in the midst of a dynamic world. Yup, what he said. Floatplanes are romantic as all get out, but lack economic practicality. Maybe someday somebody will figure out how to make money on them the way some folks make big cruise ships pay. Until then they are just a chapter in Naval Aviation (and aviation) history. I know it's a niche market, but there are at least two companies flying otter and twin otter float planes between Victoria and Vancouver in BC (as well as a few other destinations in the area). The geography of those two cities is such that the seaplanes can provide a downtown - downtown service with a short journey time, indeed in less time than it would take to drive to the airport. They seem to cope quite well with the other traffic in the harbours. Robin |
#47
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Seaplane Resurgence? Pinging Eugene and jack
On Oct 2, 12:04 pm, "TMOliver" wrote:
I note that the poor deluded and apparently deranged woman who died - strangled in an attempt to get out of the irons - while cuffed and shackled at Sky Harbor, the Phoenix Airport, was the daughter of a retired SA Navy CDR. The story has played mightily here in the US, drawing response from the two predictable positions, the usual tearful hand-wringers blaming the cops or the TSA (a bit off, since the TSA apparently weren't ever involved), and the "just desserts" crowd, which in this case seem likely to be correct in their view. Throwing a fit, especially over being denied boarding because the door was closed - a routine and to be expected inconvnience these days - is bad enough, but throwing one which requires the gendarmes to put you in restraints (implying an ongoing failure of rationality) seems evidence of deper problems.... Apparently, she was on her way to an alcohol rehab center in Tucson. Sad, since were she not so purposeful in her intent to beat booze, she could have simply gone in the bar, had a few belts, and simply felt depressed, not antagonistic. TMO Her inlaws were also very important people. It is like the old mysteries where the lord is killed in a closed room. You wait for the autopsy, and assume the police handled it well and if they didn't, there are no surveillance cameras or eye witnesses. The family lawyer was in the Keating case. Deep draft. "Police spokesman Sgt. Andy Hill said officers placed Gotbaum in a room without a surveillance camera. After about five to 10 minutes, officers no longer could hear her voice and went to check. Gotbaum was found unconscious with her hands "pressed against her neck area," Hill said. In a statement released Monday, Hill said Gotbaum had been shackled to a bench as well as being handcuffed. The shackle's chain ran from an eyehook and the other was connected to the chain on Gotbaum's handcuffs." |
#49
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Seaplane Resurgence? Pinging Eugene and jack
TMOliver wrote:
I note that the poor deluded and apparently deranged woman who died - strangled in an attempt to get out of the irons - while cuffed and shackled at Sky Harbor, the Phoenix Airport, was the daughter of a retired SA Navy CDR. The story has played mightily here in the US, drawing response from the two predictable positions, the usual tearful hand-wringers blaming the cops or the TSA (a bit off, since the TSA apparently weren't ever involved), and the "just desserts" crowd, which in this case seem likely to be correct in their view. Throwing a fit, especially over being denied boarding because the door was closed - a routine and to be expected inconvnience these days - is bad enough, but throwing one which requires the gendarmes to put you in restraints (implying an ongoing failure of rationality) seems evidence of deper problems.... Apparently, she was on her way to an alcohol rehab center in Tucson. Sad, since were she not so purposeful in her intent to beat booze, she could have simply gone in the bar, had a few belts, and simply felt depressed, not antagonistic. TMO We train police to never leave a handcuffed person unattended Epileptic seizures and similar events have killed handcuffed people From an arizona case on leaving a handcuffed person unattended Second, they argued that theirfactual allegations and the inferences that could be drawn from them stated a claim for gross negligence. They included an affidavit from an expert witness on police practices and procedures, who opined that Officer Congrove's actions constituted gross negligence and that DPS was grossly negligent in providing a patrol car that lacked security features routinely found in such vehicles. http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/...1/cv970475.txt Vince |
#50
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Seaplane Resurgence?
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On Oct 1, 8:32 pm, (Eugene Griessel) wrote: "TMOliver" wrote: The awful truth.... Them dannable Tscherman N*zis and the Hirohito's aggressive pursuit of the East Asian Coprosperity Sphere sealed the doom of the flying boat and sea plane by causing we Merkins to pave or at worst lay steel mat over the majority of the Western World's (and some Eastern's too) long flat places. When there were runways everywhere, planes that floated were relegated to niche market status, quaint curiosites in the midst of a dynamic world. Slightly off-topic. When my brother-in-law (then to be) immigrated out here in 1952 it was a 5 day odyssey aboard a flying boat which stopped at all sorts of interesting places along the way. They landed on Lake Victoria in the late afternoon and had to leave very early in the morning because the heat would rob the engines of the required power to lift off. They finally ended up on the Vaal dam just south of Johannesburg. Must have been close to the swansong of the Empire flying boat service. In-flight movie was sliding back your window and watching the herds of animals as you flew over them at a couple of thousand feet. Way back in 1960 I was privileged to watch a French squadron, 27F Flotille, using Martin Marlin flyingboats operating out of the lagoon next to my home. They had flown from Dakar to Langebaan non-stop some 3600 nautical miles which was considered excellent for that time. On their return they used JATO - the first time it was ever used in South Africa - to get airborne. Also doing so at first light and using an enormous run of 5 to 6km run to get airborne. One of the boats suffered a JATO bottle explosion which ripped a substantial hole in her side. It was slipped at Langebaan using the gear from the Sunderland squadron that used to operate there (and which was still in storage there) and a borrowed tractor to get her up the slipway. Eugene L Griessel Old age is when you find yourself using one bend-over to pick up two things. - I usually post only from Sci.Military.Naval - My college roommate was from South Africa and his description of his flight on a Comet in 1954 or so read like a comedy routine. Up in the air, down to refuel; up in the, air down to refuel, etc. As an addendum - consider the luck of an SAA pilot, Doug Meaker, he flew Comet Yoke Peter to London on the 5th January 1954. On the 10th it crashed near Elba due to catastrophic depressurisation due to metal fatigue. He was booked to fly a Comet on the the 8th April - but something came up and he was given an earlier flight. Comet Yoke Yoke crashed south of Naples ..... Must be fun to have the grim reaper breathing down one's neck like that! Eugene L Griessel Communication - the art of transferring thought from one brain to another successfully. - I usually post only from Sci.Military.Naval - |
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