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Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam

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Old July 11th 04, 05:44 AM
Bill Shatzer
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Jim Thomas ) writes:
George Shirley wrote in message news:
Most grunts referred to officers "advancing their careers" by serving a
tour or part of a tour as "getting their ticket punched." Had to get a
least some combat time for advancement. Many officers were there because
that was the only war we had at the time and war means promotions,
officer or enlisted lifer.

And why is this a bad thing?

'Cause it played havoc with unit morale and combat effectiveness.

To provide a maximum number of "ticket punches", most officers
spent only six months or less with the combat battlions - the
rest of their tours were spent as laundry and morale office at
some rear echelon headquarters unit.

Just about the time an officer was really learning to get good at
his job, he'd be rotated out and a new inexperienced "ticket puncher"
would be assigned in his place. To repeat the learning curve.

I'd venture to say that most of the
officers who volunteered to serve in SEA did so, not to save the USA
from the Communist hordes, but because it was, indeed, "the only war
we had"; going to war, if required, was what we all signed to do; and
yes, anyone who expected to make a career as a warrior needed to prove
that he could be one. If this is "ticket punching", then I'm guilty.

I don't denigrate the "ticket punchers" - especially the captains and
looies. Their motives were generally honorable and their intentions

But the system was dumb and undoubtably resulted in some good
people getting killed who didn't have to be.

And that's a heavy price to pay for the sake of increasing the number
of tickets punched.


"Cave ab homine unius libri"
Old July 11th 04, 05:49 AM
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Hey, I DEROS'd 10 days early: maybe I should run for President.


"Cave ab homine unius libri"
Old July 11th 04, 05:49 AM
Fred the Red Shirt
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"ian maclure" wrote in message ...
On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 10:53:48 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:

I believe that is the first time I have heard of the F-102 as a "safe
aircraft"! Were they really?

Compared to flying F-105's to Route Package Six, they were very safe when
compared to flying an F-102 over Houston.


Absent the folks shooting at you and the fact that Air Intercept
is usually a regime thats less hazardous inherently than moving
mud, both are equally hazardous.

IOW, if you don't consider the factors that make one more hazardous,
they are equally hazaradous? Or are you just saying that any risk
differential was largely independent of the type of aircraft being

One should probably also factor in quality of maitenance domestically
vs in theater.

Didn't the 102 have the downward firing ejection seat that
made low-level ejections, er, problematic?


Old July 11th 04, 06:02 AM
D. Strang
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"Bill Shatzer" wrote

But the system was dumb and undoubtably resulted in some good
people getting killed who didn't have to be.

Most of the men killed in my platoons died because they failed
basic military skills. Every time we went out, someone would trip
over a booby trap and kill the two guys behind him that were
bunched-up. It never had anything to do with the REMF's.

I never once lacked any supply I requested. The logistics troops
were always giving us what we wanted, and the air support and
artillery were instantaneous. We almost never had to carry dead
troops out of the field. We stacked them up, and a helo came in
and took them away. We had guys who just refused to wear a
flak jacket. Nothing I could threaten them with would convince
them I was right. Most of them got stacked. **** em.

Old July 11th 04, 06:04 AM
D. Strang
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Can you imitate Thurston Howell III?

"Jack" wrote

Hey, I DEROS'd 10 days early: maybe I should run for President.

Old July 11th 04, 06:41 AM
Ian MacLure
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"D. Strang" wrote in
news:[email protected]:


JFKerry skipped out of his last 8 months in the war zone (after
receiving three scratches in the line of duty).

One of which ( it is alleged ) he got by playing the asshole
with explosive ordnance.


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