AutoGas question.. Jay Honeck, Jim Weir.. others..

RKHenry wrote:
: I'm not sure how members of the "Can Clan" who tanker fuel from the corner
: gas station in jerry cans would handle this. It's one thing to send the
: state a fuel invoice from the FBO, it's another to send in a cash register
: receipt from the convenience mart.

That's exactly what I do. I've got a little spreadsheet that I key in the
gallons and total it up for them. I've sent in 100 receipts for 6-18 gallons apiece
totalling a few hundred gallons. They don't even have to add up the receipts (for
which I'm sure they're grateful).

Oh, and WRT filling with jerry cans, there's one more thing. There's always a
slight bit of crud in autofuel (trace water, particles, etc). I used to worry about
that in the airplane. Now I rigged up a spin-on water-absorbing filter in the spout
of the gas cans I fill from. Fuel is clean and dry.

: Would it make any difference to anyone if you knew that the tax was going
: into the Airport & Airways Fund instead of the state highway fund?

I don't gripe at all about the extra nickels' worth of airport tax I don't get
back on the airplane-autofuel.

I worry a
: little about that now that the airlines are arguing that the reason that
: they're all hemorraging money is because General Aviation isn't paying for
: 100% of the cost of ATC--which was mandated by the airlines.

This is (of course) completely B.S. that I've been reading about for awhile.
Funny how they can actually feel it's a credible argument. ATC wouldn't need to exist
if it weren't for commerical operations.

-Cory


--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

Thanks for the point out, John... I need to do some homework (I havent
read the links just yet).. but I may have gone off half cocked with
regards to the entire tax load being refundable/deductible.

I intend to look into this and see what I can come up with. The
fuel/fleet card vendors on a national level (Fuelman and
Chevron/Texaco.. the likely sources nearby me) were not very helpful and
in their case the deductions that I spoke of appear to be directly
related to the previous account I set up being a "fire dept" which was a
quasigovernmental agency..

Anyways.. I am going to do some research and get back to you guys.

Dave

John Clonts wrote:
"Dave S" wrote in message
nk.net...

The folks here who are running autogas.. I have a question for you.

Preface: When I was tasked by my volunteer fire department 10 years ago
to stamp out fuel credit card abuse and fraud, I secured the services of
a certain brand's fleet card system. The sales vendor who set up our
account told me that any of our OFF ROAD engines were eligible to be
billed free of the state and federal highway fuel taxes. In the fire
dept's case this was for generators and free standing pumps.. but our
"off road" gasoline useage was so light that it wasnt even worth the

hassle.

So.. Since aircraft (with the exception of Mr Moller's wannabe Skycar
and a few others) are not considered licensed motor vehicles for the
purpose of the fuel taxes, do you guys make an effort to obtain fuel
with a special account that gives credit for these taxes? In Texas the
amount is 38.5 cents/gal and over a year or so that can add up to real
money (especially in light of the discounted price of autogas compared
to 100LL)

I'm presuming some method of accounting would be needed in the event of
an audit.. but just wanted to see if 1) anyone else was aware of this 2)
does it still exist and 3) does anyone do it?

I figured Jay Honeck would be a perfect example of someone who could do
this, since he has his Mighty Grape (TM) fuel shuttlemobile. If the
Texas rates apply I would guess this could drop Atlas's operating costs
by $4-$6 per hour (40 cents x 10-15 GPH). Fillup of the Grape's 60 gal
tank would be about $23-$24 cheaper. Every little bit helps.

I was planning on contacting Fuelman/Rushce about their fuelcard setup
but havent gotten to it just yet (many months out from flying the
Velocity with auto conversion)...

So.. anyone have input, feedback, comment?
Dave



Hello Dave,

For Texas:

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statu....000162.00.htm

look at paragraph "162.125 (c) 4"

http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinf.../06-forms.html

under "refunds"

Note, I have no experience with this, but it does sound pretty interesting!

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

John... I think I got the thread pasted onto the wrong reply by another
person.. but I think everyone can follow it.



Ok.. this is TEXAS specific information.. but the STATE tax of $0.20/gal
appears to be 100% refundable.

paste
excepts Sec. 153.104. Exceptions and Sec. 153.119 Refunds

Gasoline delivered to a permitted aviation fuel dealer and solely for
use in aircraft and aircraft servicing equipment is excluded from
taxation. Likewise, gasoline sold from one aviation fuel dealer to
another aviation fuel dealer is not subject to tax. Taxes paid on
gasoline for aircraft and aircraft servicing equipment uses are subject
to refund.
Snip

the LAST sentence is the key. So.. that right there is a significant
amount of $$ that in Texas appears to be refundable.

Next step is to look at the IRS and see if any of the federal portion is
refundable.

Dave


Dave S wrote:

Thanks for the point out, John... I need to do some homework (I havent
read the links just yet).. but I may have gone off half cocked with
regards to the entire tax load being refundable/deductible.

I intend to look into this and see what I can come up with. The
fuel/fleet card vendors on a national level (Fuelman and
Chevron/Texaco.. the likely sources nearby me) were not very helpful and
in their case the deductions that I spoke of appear to be directly
related to the previous account I set up being a "fire dept" which was a
quasigovernmental agency..

Anyways.. I am going to do some research and get back to you guys.

Dave

John Clonts wrote:

"Dave S" wrote in message
nk.net...

The folks here who are running autogas.. I have a question for you.

Preface: When I was tasked by my volunteer fire department 10 years ago
to stamp out fuel credit card abuse and fraud, I secured the services of
a certain brand's fleet card system. The sales vendor who set up our
account told me that any of our OFF ROAD engines were eligible to be
billed free of the state and federal highway fuel taxes. In the fire
dept's case this was for generators and free standing pumps.. but our
"off road" gasoline useage was so light that it wasnt even worth the


hassle.

So.. Since aircraft (with the exception of Mr Moller's wannabe Skycar
and a few others) are not considered licensed motor vehicles for the
purpose of the fuel taxes, do you guys make an effort to obtain fuel
with a special account that gives credit for these taxes? In Texas the
amount is 38.5 cents/gal and over a year or so that can add up to real
money (especially in light of the discounted price of autogas compared
to 100LL)

I'm presuming some method of accounting would be needed in the event of
an audit.. but just wanted to see if 1) anyone else was aware of this 2)
does it still exist and 3) does anyone do it?

I figured Jay Honeck would be a perfect example of someone who could do
this, since he has his Mighty Grape (TM) fuel shuttlemobile. If the
Texas rates apply I would guess this could drop Atlas's operating costs
by $4-$6 per hour (40 cents x 10-15 GPH). Fillup of the Grape's 60 gal
tank would be about $23-$24 cheaper. Every little bit helps.

I was planning on contacting Fuelman/Rushce about their fuelcard setup
but havent gotten to it just yet (many months out from flying the
Velocity with auto conversion)...

So.. anyone have input, feedback, comment?
Dave




Hello Dave,

For Texas:

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statu....000162.00.htm


look at paragraph "162.125 (c) 4"

http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinf.../06-forms.html

under "refunds"

Note, I have no experience with this, but it does sound pretty
interesting!

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

OK...

The federal excise tax ($0.184/gal) is not as easily deducted. In this
instance for PERSONAL use it does not appear to be deductible

There are a few possibilities that exempt certain aviation and non
aviation uses of AVIATION GASOLINE (as defined by its ASTM or Mil Spec)..

There is one possibility for the BUSINESS use in an off road
application. I wonder if a flight school running aircraft with a mogas
STC can utilize this deduction for automobile gasoline. I am not going
to speculate on this since I have no way to benefit from it. Good
question for the taxman.

Applicable link at:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p378.pdf

Dave




Dave S wrote:

John... I think I got the thread pasted onto the wrong reply by another
person.. but I think everyone can follow it.



Ok.. this is TEXAS specific information.. but the STATE tax of $0.20/gal
appears to be 100% refundable.

paste
excepts Sec. 153.104. Exceptions and Sec. 153.119 Refunds

Gasoline delivered to a permitted aviation fuel dealer and solely for
use in aircraft and aircraft servicing equipment is excluded from
taxation. Likewise, gasoline sold from one aviation fuel dealer to
another aviation fuel dealer is not subject to tax. Taxes paid on
gasoline for aircraft and aircraft servicing equipment uses are subject
to refund.
Snip

the LAST sentence is the key. So.. that right there is a significant
amount of $$ that in Texas appears to be refundable.

Next step is to look at the IRS and see if any of the federal portion is
refundable.

Dave


Dave S wrote:

Thanks for the point out, John... I need to do some homework (I havent
read the links just yet).. but I may have gone off half cocked with
regards to the entire tax load being refundable/deductible.

I intend to look into this and see what I can come up with. The
fuel/fleet card vendors on a national level (Fuelman and
Chevron/Texaco.. the likely sources nearby me) were not very helpful
and in their case the deductions that I spoke of appear to be directly
related to the previous account I set up being a "fire dept" which was
a quasigovernmental agency..

Anyways.. I am going to do some research and get back to you guys.

Dave

John Clonts wrote:

"Dave S" wrote in message
nk.net...

The folks here who are running autogas.. I have a question for you.

Preface: When I was tasked by my volunteer fire department 10 years ago
to stamp out fuel credit card abuse and fraud, I secured the
services of
a certain brand's fleet card system. The sales vendor who set up our
account told me that any of our OFF ROAD engines were eligible to be
billed free of the state and federal highway fuel taxes. In the fire
dept's case this was for generators and free standing pumps.. but our
"off road" gasoline useage was so light that it wasnt even worth the



hassle.

So.. Since aircraft (with the exception of Mr Moller's wannabe Skycar
and a few others) are not considered licensed motor vehicles for the
purpose of the fuel taxes, do you guys make an effort to obtain fuel
with a special account that gives credit for these taxes? In Texas the
amount is 38.5 cents/gal and over a year or so that can add up to real
money (especially in light of the discounted price of autogas compared
to 100LL)

I'm presuming some method of accounting would be needed in the event of
an audit.. but just wanted to see if 1) anyone else was aware of
this 2)
does it still exist and 3) does anyone do it?

I figured Jay Honeck would be a perfect example of someone who could do
this, since he has his Mighty Grape (TM) fuel shuttlemobile. If the
Texas rates apply I would guess this could drop Atlas's operating costs
by $4-$6 per hour (40 cents x 10-15 GPH). Fillup of the Grape's 60 gal
tank would be about $23-$24 cheaper. Every little bit helps.

I was planning on contacting Fuelman/Rushce about their fuelcard setup
but havent gotten to it just yet (many months out from flying the
Velocity with auto conversion)...

So.. anyone have input, feedback, comment?
Dave





Hello Dave,

For Texas:

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statu....000162.00.htm


look at paragraph "162.125 (c) 4"

http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinf.../06-forms.html

under "refunds"

Note, I have no experience with this, but it does sound pretty
interesting!

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

Call your State Dept. of Revenue and ask them outright. That's the only
way you'll get a 100% answer.


Trip

In article k.net, says...

John... I think I got the thread pasted onto the wrong reply by another
person.. but I think everyone can follow it.



Ok.. this is TEXAS specific information.. but the STATE tax of $0.20/gal
appears to be 100% refundable.

paste
excepts Sec. 153.104. Exceptions and Sec. 153.119 Refunds

Gasoline delivered to a permitted aviation fuel dealer and solely for
use in aircraft and aircraft servicing equipment is excluded from
taxation. Likewise, gasoline sold from one aviation fuel dealer to
another aviation fuel dealer is not subject to tax. Taxes paid on
gasoline for aircraft and aircraft servicing equipment uses are subject
to refund.
Snip

the LAST sentence is the key. So.. that right there is a significant
amount of $$ that in Texas appears to be refundable.

Next step is to look at the IRS and see if any of the federal portion is
refundable.

Dave


Dave S wrote:

Thanks for the point out, John... I need to do some homework (I havent
read the links just yet).. but I may have gone off half cocked with
regards to the entire tax load being refundable/deductible.

I intend to look into this and see what I can come up with. The
fuel/fleet card vendors on a national level (Fuelman and
Chevron/Texaco.. the likely sources nearby me) were not very helpful and
in their case the deductions that I spoke of appear to be directly
related to the previous account I set up being a "fire dept" which was a
quasigovernmental agency..

Anyways.. I am going to do some research and get back to you guys.

Dave

John Clonts wrote:

"Dave S" wrote in message
nk.net...

The folks here who are running autogas.. I have a question for you.

Preface: When I was tasked by my volunteer fire department 10 years ago
to stamp out fuel credit card abuse and fraud, I secured the services of
a certain brand's fleet card system. The sales vendor who set up our
account told me that any of our OFF ROAD engines were eligible to be
billed free of the state and federal highway fuel taxes. In the fire
dept's case this was for generators and free standing pumps.. but our
"off road" gasoline useage was so light that it wasnt even worth the


hassle.

So.. Since aircraft (with the exception of Mr Moller's wannabe Skycar
and a few others) are not considered licensed motor vehicles for the
purpose of the fuel taxes, do you guys make an effort to obtain fuel
with a special account that gives credit for these taxes? In Texas the
amount is 38.5 cents/gal and over a year or so that can add up to real
money (especially in light of the discounted price of autogas compared
to 100LL)

I'm presuming some method of accounting would be needed in the event of
an audit.. but just wanted to see if 1) anyone else was aware of this 2)
does it still exist and 3) does anyone do it?

I figured Jay Honeck would be a perfect example of someone who could do
this, since he has his Mighty Grape (TM) fuel shuttlemobile. If the
Texas rates apply I would guess this could drop Atlas's operating costs
by $4-$6 per hour (40 cents x 10-15 GPH). Fillup of the Grape's 60 gal
tank would be about $23-$24 cheaper. Every little bit helps.

I was planning on contacting Fuelman/Rushce about their fuelcard setup
but havent gotten to it just yet (many months out from flying the
Velocity with auto conversion)...

So.. anyone have input, feedback, comment?
Dave




Hello Dave,

For Texas:

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statu....002.00.000162.
00.htm


look at paragraph "162.125 (c) 4"

http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinf.../06-forms.html

under "refunds"

Note, I have no experience with this, but it does sound pretty
interesting!

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

wrote in message ...
RKHenry wrote:

I worry a
: little about that now that the airlines are arguing that the reason that
: they're all hemorraging money is because General Aviation isn't paying for
: 100% of the cost of ATC--which was mandated by the airlines.

This is (of course) completely B.S. that I've been reading about for awhile.
Funny how they can actually feel it's a credible argument. ATC wouldn't need to exist
if it weren't for commerical operations.


I don't believe that commercial airlines feel that it is a credible
argument. I do believe that they feel it's a plausable, defendable
argument in the court of (uninformed) public opinion. Remember, in
that arena, you don't have to be logical, you just have to look
logical.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

Here is the link to the information about gas tax refund for aviation in
Colorado:

http://www.revenue.state.co.us/fyi/pdf/excise07.pdf

Looks doable especially for FBO owners.

Dave,
I've recieved road tax refunds from Oklahoma over the last 3 years.
They have a form to fill out which lists all non-road purchases, and
gives 15.9 cents/gal refund. I have to keep all my receipts for 5
years. I opened a bulk account at the local gas station, dedicated to
airplane fuel purchases. They send me a bill at the end of the month,
so all I have to keep is the monthly invoices. About every 6 months
I'll apply for the refund. Jan-Jun-04 was 1236 gal, and $195 refund.

I haven't pursued Federal refunds.

mitch
Chickasha Wings Inc
http://groups.yahoo.group/n10681/




Dave S wrote in message ink.net...
The folks here who are running autogas.. I have a question for you.

Preface: When I was tasked by my volunteer fire department 10 years ago
to stamp out fuel credit card abuse and fraud, I secured the services of
a certain brand's fleet card system. The sales vendor who set up our
account told me that any of our OFF ROAD engines were eligible to be
billed free of the state and federal highway fuel taxes. In the fire
dept's case this was for generators and free standing pumps.. but our
"off road" gasoline useage was so light that it wasnt even worth the hassle.

So.. Since aircraft (with the exception of Mr Moller's wannabe Skycar
and a few others) are not considered licensed motor vehicles for the
purpose of the fuel taxes, do you guys make an effort to obtain fuel
with a special account that gives credit for these taxes? In Texas the
amount is 38.5 cents/gal and over a year or so that can add up to real
money (especially in light of the discounted price of autogas compared
to 100LL)

I'm presuming some method of accounting would be needed in the event of
an audit.. but just wanted to see if 1) anyone else was aware of this 2)
does it still exist and 3) does anyone do it?

I figured Jay Honeck would be a perfect example of someone who could do
this, since he has his Mighty Grape (TM) fuel shuttlemobile. If the
Texas rates apply I would guess this could drop Atlas's operating costs
by $4-$6 per hour (40 cents x 10-15 GPH). Fillup of the Grape's 60 gal
tank would be about $23-$24 cheaper. Every little bit helps.

I was planning on contacting Fuelman/Rushce about their fuelcard setup
but havent gotten to it just yet (many months out from flying the
Velocity with auto conversion)...

So.. anyone have input, feedback, comment?
Dave

Thanks for your insight...

After looking at the Federal side of it.. it does not appear that part
91 personal flights (that are not associated with museum pieces) are
able to be exempted/refunded with regards to the federal gasoline tax.

I posted a link to the document that gave me that impression elsewhere
in this thread.

Dave

N7155A wrote:

Dave,
I've recieved road tax refunds from Oklahoma over the last 3 years.
They have a form to fill out which lists all non-road purchases, and
gives 15.9 cents/gal refund. I have to keep all my receipts for 5
years. I opened a bulk account at the local gas station, dedicated to
airplane fuel purchases. They send me a bill at the end of the month,
so all I have to keep is the monthly invoices. About every 6 months
I'll apply for the refund. Jan-Jun-04 was 1236 gal, and $195 refund.

I haven't pursued Federal refunds.

mitch
Chickasha Wings Inc
http://groups.yahoo.group/n10681/




Dave S wrote in message ink.net...

The folks here who are running autogas.. I have a question for you.

Preface: When I was tasked by my volunteer fire department 10 years ago
to stamp out fuel credit card abuse and fraud, I secured the services of
a certain brand's fleet card system. The sales vendor who set up our
account told me that any of our OFF ROAD engines were eligible to be
billed free of the state and federal highway fuel taxes. In the fire
dept's case this was for generators and free standing pumps.. but our
"off road" gasoline useage was so light that it wasnt even worth the hassle.

So.. Since aircraft (with the exception of Mr Moller's wannabe Skycar
and a few others) are not considered licensed motor vehicles for the
purpose of the fuel taxes, do you guys make an effort to obtain fuel
with a special account that gives credit for these taxes? In Texas the
amount is 38.5 cents/gal and over a year or so that can add up to real
money (especially in light of the discounted price of autogas compared
to 100LL)

I'm presuming some method of accounting would be needed in the event of
an audit.. but just wanted to see if 1) anyone else was aware of this 2)
does it still exist and 3) does anyone do it?

I figured Jay Honeck would be a perfect example of someone who could do
this, since he has his Mighty Grape (TM) fuel shuttlemobile. If the
Texas rates apply I would guess this could drop Atlas's operating costs
by $4-$6 per hour (40 cents x 10-15 GPH). Fillup of the Grape's 60 gal
tank would be about $23-$24 cheaper. Every little bit helps.

I was planning on contacting Fuelman/Rushce about their fuelcard setup
but havent gotten to it just yet (many months out from flying the
Velocity with auto conversion)...

So.. anyone have input, feedback, comment?
Dave

N7155A wrote:

I haven't pursued Federal refunds.

I checked into it and found that they're limited to flights made for charitable
purposes.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.