A-6 Radar Display?

Was the A6F/A-6A "first of its kind" with a digital bombing system? I
bombed from A3D-2/A-3B bombers, ours had the Norden electro-mechanical
analog computer with ASB-1A bombing system radar. I heard, but never
saw, that the 147xxx buno A-3B's, all delivered to Whidbey heavy attack
squadrons, had a digital ASB-7 bombing system. The ASB-1A system had a
1,200' margin of error, all who were inducted into the HATWINGONE "Bulls
Eye Club" were said to be victims of this error tolerance.
Does anyone here know of the ASB-7 systems? I don't know how long they
stayed in operation as bombers, the East coast VAH squadrons were
transitioning to the Vigilante starting 1961, the West coast A-3's seem
to have transitioned to KA-3B's and EKA-3B'shortly thereafter so this
all digital ASB-7 probably did little bombing.
Joel McEachen VAH-5

Mike Kanze wrote:
Nick, I've loaned out my copy of FOTI so I can't immediately refer to
it in trying to answer your question. Try I will, though.

First, the setting for FOTI is the later years of the VN conflict.
This is important because the A-6A was the current Intruder model at
that time. The A-6E had not yet entered fleet service and some of
the whistles and bells of the A system were eliminated or very
greatly changed in the E system - including a couple of
terrain-clearance toys that Coonts likely describes in FOTI.

Second, one must remember that the A-6A was the "first" of its kind -
the first aircraft with full integration of its various sensors into
a digital (not analog, like the Norden bombsight) computer. In this
respect it was also very much "bleeding edge." The personal computing
dictum about being especially wary of Version 1 of anything could as
well have been written by those of us in the A-6A.

Joel,

Thanks for enlightening me about the Whale's capabilities. The fact that
the ASB-7 was digital was unknown to me. Some of the other info I only
vaguely recall, since much of it came in ready room and O-Club conversations
from those former heavy attack types who migrated into the Intruder program.

I probably should have emphasized more the successful integration of the A-6
system in my original post. Certainly there were other digital bombing
systems in use prior to the A-6's ASQ-61. More precisely, the A-6 was the
first aircraft to integrate "successfully enough" all of its key sensors -
thermal, pitot-static, INS, radars, etc. into its computer (and with
computer feedback to some of these systems like the INS) - enabling it to
launch, successfully prosecute an attack and return to the ship without any
external visual reference until ball-call. Our term back then for this was
"full-system capable."

Of course this was the theory. The actuality was a system with an average
MTBF of less than a hop. A 1,200 foot error margin for the ASB-1A is
something we "old" B/Ns can identify with, since the Q-61 could go
squirrelly. I probably have a tighter CEP for manual range line attacks (a
typical form of A-6A degraded system attack) than for full-system work.

--
Mike Kanze

"John Kerry has promised to take this country back from the wealthy. Who
better than the guy worth $700 million to take the country back? See, he
knows how the wealthy think. He can spy on them at his country club, at his
place in Palm Beach, at his house in the Hamptons. He's like a mole for the
working man."

- Jay Leno


"J. McEachen" wrote in message
...
Was the A6F/A-6A "first of its kind" with a digital bombing system? I
bombed from A3D-2/A-3B bombers, ours had the Norden electro-mechanical
analog computer with ASB-1A bombing system radar. I heard, but never saw,
that the 147xxx buno A-3B's, all delivered to Whidbey heavy attack
squadrons, had a digital ASB-7 bombing system. The ASB-1A system had a
1,200' margin of error, all who were inducted into the HATWINGONE "Bulls
Eye Club" were said to be victims of this error tolerance.
Does anyone here know of the ASB-7 systems? I don't know how long they
stayed in operation as bombers, the East coast VAH squadrons were
transitioning to the Vigilante starting 1961, the West coast A-3's seem to
have transitioned to KA-3B's and EKA-3B'shortly thereafter so this all
digital ASB-7 probably did little bombing.
Joel McEachen VAH-5

Mike Kanze wrote:
Nick, I've loaned out my copy of FOTI so I can't immediately refer to
it in trying to answer your question. Try I will, though.

First, the setting for FOTI is the later years of the VN conflict.
This is important because the A-6A was the current Intruder model at
that time. The A-6E had not yet entered fleet service and some of
the whistles and bells of the A system were eliminated or very
greatly changed in the E system - including a couple of
terrain-clearance toys that Coonts likely describes in FOTI.

Second, one must remember that the A-6A was the "first" of its kind -
the first aircraft with full integration of its various sensors into
a digital (not analog, like the Norden bombsight) computer. In this
respect it was also very much "bleeding edge." The personal computing
dictum about being especially wary of Version 1 of anything could as
well have been written by those of us in the A-6A.

"Mike Kanze" wrote...

I probably have a tighter CEP for manual range line attacks (a typical
form of A-6A degraded system attack) than for full-system work.

MRLs were still alive and well in the A-6E TRAM in the late 80s! I can't claim
a great CEP with them, but they worked with a good B/N.

OTOH, I got one of my bullseye patches with a 5' hit on a high loft with a Mk76.
When a system was tight, it could be PFM!

John,

When a system was tight, it could be PFM!

Absolutely! Those were the hops A-6A B/Ns would "almost" give up a testicle
to fly. Usually one didn't know until airborne how nice things would be, so
every time you manned up you hoped for the best. Flying the OB-16 route at
night with a tight system was "the stuff dreams are made from." (Apologies
to Sam Spade / Humphrey Bogart.)

--
Mike Kanze

"John Kerry has promised to take this country back from the wealthy. Who
better than the guy worth $700 million to take the country back? See, he
knows how the wealthy think. He can spy on them at his country club, at his
place in Palm Beach, at his house in the Hamptons. He's like a mole for the
working man."

- Jay Leno


"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:gxAad.159906$wV.63195@attbi_s54...
"Mike Kanze" wrote...

I probably have a tighter CEP for manual range line attacks (a
typical form of A-6A degraded system attack) than for full-system work.

MRLs were still alive and well in the A-6E TRAM in the late 80s! I can't
claim a great CEP with them, but they worked with a good B/N.

OTOH, I got one of my bullseye patches with a 5' hit on a high loft with a
Mk76. When a system was tight, it could be PFM!

Flying the OB-16 route at night with a tight system was
"the stuff dreams are made from."

What was the OB-16 route, and why was it so much fun to fly it with a
tight system at night?

Paul Michael Brown,

The OB-16 route was a low-level high speed (360 knots +) training route that
worked its way through the canyons of the John Day River system in eastern
Oregon, generally south-southeastward into northwestern Nevada, ending at
the B-16 target area near the Fallon (Nevada) Naval Air Station.

The route was specifically laid out as a means for west coast A-6 crews to
employ the Intruder's various sensors (aircraft and human) in as realistic a
way as possible in the prosecution of a single-aircraft attack against a
radar-significant target. The early route segments included terrain-masking
/ terrain-avoidance practice by flying IN the John Day River canyon (à la
Luke Skywalker on his landspeeder), practice in more typical
terrain-avoidance of low rolling hills and buttes, all leading to a
high-speed delivery of weapons on the target range. Each route segment had
specific checkpoints, system update points, leg speeds, leg times, and all
other manner of stuff a good crew needed to do well, to remain A-6 Jedi
Masters. This was fun because, with a good system and an experienced-enough
crew, one could play with all of the Intruder's then-state-of-the-art toys
in a very realistic way.

The remoteness and sparse population along the route made it an ideal
training environment, due to the realism offered by the widely varying
terrain and the reduced chance of disturbing the civilian population.

Flying IN the canyon or very close to the ground or obstructions enroute was
optional, and usually depended upon the combination of system "tightness",
wx and visibility, crew experience, and how many family members the crew
might widow /orphan if they pranged. g IIRC, in the 1972 - 1974 period
the A-6 was cleared to as low as 200 feet AGL in the canyon at the crew's
option. (I'm writing this from memory. Others with better info please jump
in.)

A similar but shorter training route - called the Tailhook Route - started
at roughly the same place but stayed entirely within eastern Oregon and
ended at the Boardman target range near Umatilla, on the Columbia River.

There used to be quite a number of OB routes throughout the US, used by all
of the flying service branches. These were laid out with the training needs
and equipment capabilities of the users in mind, jointly by the "customer"
service branch and the FAA. Don't know how many remain, or what they're
called anymore.

"OB" (in the OB-16 name) used to stand for "oil burner," a reference to the
effect that such low-level, high speed flight had on reciprocating engines -
as in the Douglas A-1. In 1974, the forces of political correctness and the
aftermath of the 1973 oil embargo conspired to cause a name change.

To "Olive Branch." g

--
Mike Kanze

"John Kerry has promised to take this country back from the wealthy. Who
better than the guy worth $700 million to take the country back? See, he
knows how the wealthy think. He can spy on them at his country club, at his
place in Palm Beach, at his house in the Hamptons. He's like a mole for the
working man."

- Jay Leno


"Paul Michael Brown" wrote in message
news
Flying the OB-16 route at night with a tight system was
"the stuff dreams are made from."

What was the OB-16 route, and why was it so much fun to fly it with a
tight system at night?

In article , Mike Kanze
wrote:

Paul Michael Brown,

The OB-16 route was a low-level high speed (360 knots +) training route that
worked its way through the canyons of the John Day River system in eastern
Oregon, generally south-southeastward into northwestern Nevada, ending at
the B-16 target area near the Fallon (Nevada) Naval Air Station.

IIRC this route was later renamed to VR-1354 for us Prowler guys and
the IR-346 for the IMC flyers. Could be wrong about that.

The route I mostly remember fondly was the VR-1355. Once went by the
crags north of the lake above hwy 90 (point Echo maybe?) well below a
group of climbers as we were at 200 agl and 450kts+. At the Whidbey
airshow that year a group of boy scouts came up when I was standing by
the jet and apparently that was them, and said it made their trip. I
was on the Brooks ski lift at Stevens Pass go up to ski the bowl once
and had a section of VAQ-138 Prowlers go over at max warp, one inverted
pulling over the ridge, the other knife edge. You saw the clue light
come on when they saw the lodge and realized they were east of the
route and over a "noise sensitive". Everyone on the lift was cheering
them on though.

Pugs

Allen,

Great share. Thanks.

Once went by the crags north of the lake above hwy 90 (point Echo maybe?)
well below a group of climbers as we were at 200 agl and 450kts+.

One of the routes - Tailhook, maybe - had a leg that transited Lake Abert
from SE to NW (south central Oregon on your Rand-McNally road atlas). The
SE shore of the lake abuts a high rim and the approach to the rim was a
gentle up-slope, low-level leg. It was always fun to do a barrel roll after
passing the rim since there was quite a sudden drop-off from the rim level
to the lake level.

Everyone on the lift was cheering them on though.

So much depends on the context of the moment. There have been two or three
times since 9/11 where pointy-nosed military aircraft have overflown UC
Berkeley's Memorial Stadium in conjunction with the National Anthem just
before a Cal home football game, and the crowd has LOVED it.

Yes - even in ultra-left Berkeley!

--
Mike Kanze

"John Kerry has promised to take this country back from the wealthy. Who
better than the guy worth $700 million to take the country back? See, he
knows how the wealthy think. He can spy on them at his country club, at his
place in Palm Beach, at his house in the Hamptons. He's like a mole for the
working man."

- Jay Leno


"Allen Epps" wrote in message
et...
In article , Mike Kanze
wrote:

Paul Michael Brown,

The OB-16 route was a low-level high speed (360 knots +) training route
that
worked its way through the canyons of the John Day River system in
eastern
Oregon, generally south-southeastward into northwestern Nevada, ending at
the B-16 target area near the Fallon (Nevada) Naval Air Station.

IIRC this route was later renamed to VR-1354 for us Prowler guys and
the IR-346 for the IMC flyers. Could be wrong about that.

The route I mostly remember fondly was the VR-1355. Once went by the
crags north of the lake above hwy 90 (point Echo maybe?) well below a
group of climbers as we were at 200 agl and 450kts+. At the Whidbey
airshow that year a group of boy scouts came up when I was standing by
the jet and apparently that was them, and said it made their trip. I
was on the Brooks ski lift at Stevens Pass go up to ski the bowl once
and had a section of VAQ-138 Prowlers go over at max warp, one inverted
pulling over the ridge, the other knife edge. You saw the clue light
come on when they saw the lodge and realized they were east of the
route and over a "noise sensitive". Everyone on the lift was cheering
them on though.

Pugs