Silly controller

Umm, I would like to see this cancellation scenario happen when the IFR
student is on his check ride with either an FAA examiner or DER in the
plane... Watching two branches of the federal government duke it out
could be highly entertaining...

Anyway, if you are not truly VFR or if you need that IFR approach for
currency there is that word in the regs, "Unable", for a reason... A
single word, unadorned - and no further explanation will be offered by
me any more than he did. The controller is then obligated to continue
to handle you IFR...
Now, having said that, being normally a cooperative cuss, and if I am
just shooting the approach to stay sharp, and he is busy, etc., I won't
care, I'll simply grunt, "roger that, 57 pop", hit the 1200 button and
continue the approach...

denny

Denny wrote:
.. Watching two branches of the federal government duke it out
could be highly entertaining...


It's all the FAA. They often never talk to each other.

"Denny" wrote in message
oups.com...
Umm, I would like to see this cancellation scenario happen when the IFR
student is on his check ride with either an FAA examiner or DER in the
plane... Watching two branches of the federal government duke it out
could be highly entertaining...

Which two of the three (Judicial, Legislative, Executive)?

Are you one of those modern public school graduates? :~)

"Steven P. McNicoll" writes:

"Christopher C. Stacy" wrote in message
...

When he gave you the clearance for the approach, did he say
"Maintain VFR?" If not, you were really IFR.


No. You're really IFR when you hear "Cleared to..."

Like in, "Cleared for the ILS runway 23 at Foobar maintain 2000 until established" ?

Christopher C. Stacy wrote:
"Steven P. McNicoll" writes:

"Christopher C. Stacy" wrote in message
...

When he gave you the clearance for the approach, did he say
"Maintain VFR?" If not, you were really IFR.


No. You're really IFR when you hear "Cleared to..."

Like in, "Cleared for the ILS runway 23 at Foobar maintain 2000 until established" ?
Or "Cleared to Land"

Word games aside, Steven is right. The difference between being IFR and
VFR in controlled airspace is being told "cleared to foobar".

-Robert

"Christopher C. Stacy" wrote in message
...

Like in, "Cleared for the ILS runway 23 at Foobar maintain 2000 until
established" ?


No. Like when you picked up your IFR clearance some time prior to that and
heard "Cleared to..."

Christopher C. Stacy wrote:
"Steven P. McNicoll" writes:

"Christopher C. Stacy" wrote in message
...

When he gave you the clearance for the approach, did he say
"Maintain VFR?" If not, you were really IFR.


No. You're really IFR when you hear "Cleared to..."

Like in, "Cleared for the ILS runway 23 at Foobar maintain 2000 until established" ?

My interpretation of the ATC handbook is that there are three types of
practice approaches:

1) You can be IFR, in which case it works just like any other IFR
operation except that practice approaches are lower priority (you can
be delayed). This comes with a proper IFR clearance (with a clearance
limit) as has been stated in this thread.

2) You can be VFR, but with separation services. Here you get 500 ft
vertical separation from other traffic and standard lateral separation.
The published miss is not authorized unless the controller
specifically approves it, and if he does approve it, separation
services are provided for the missed approach procedure as well. This
comes with the instruction "CLEARED FOR THE APPROACH" or similar.

3) You can be VFR, but without separation services. The missed
approach is again not authorized. This comes with the instruction
"PRACTICE APPROACH APPROVED" or similar.

If you're operating under VFR, the controller is supposed to remind you
by saying "MAINTAIN VFR" at some point, but if the controller forgets,
it doesn't change anything.

If separation services are provided, then the controller must be
informed when to terminate those services. Could this be when the
confusion occurs? What is the terminology for terminating VFR
separation services? I've assumed that many controllers use standard
IFR cancellation terminology for that even when the airplane is
operated under VFR.

Peter

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Christopher C. Stacy" wrote in message
...
When he gave you the clearance for the approach, did he say
"Maintain VFR?" If not, you were really IFR.


No. You're really IFR when you hear "Cleared to..."

I once requested a practice approach with a student, and the controller
asked if I wanted to do it VFR or IFR. I replied that I preferred VFR,
and he gave me an altitude to climb to. I told him that if he wanted us
there, we'd have to do it IFR. His response? "Ok, you're IFR then.
Climb and maintain 5000." It's really hard to teach correct phraseology
to a student with instructions like that. Student and I had a really
long talk on the ground later.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Christopher C. Stacy" wrote in message
...

When he gave you the clearance for the approach, did he say
"Maintain VFR?" If not, you were really IFR.



No. You're really IFR when you hear "Cleared to..."


How about this:

Pilot: "SoCal Approach, Piper 1234B is 10 west of Paradise on top at
5,500. Request ILS approach to Chino 26 Right."

ATC: "34B squawk 2133...34B radar contact, fly present heading for the
Chino ILS 26 Right. Descend and maintain 4,000."

Did the controller issue an IFR clearance?

Sam Spade wrote in news:FhrIg.196$c07.193@fed1read04:

How about this:

Pilot: "SoCal Approach, Piper 1234B is 10 west of Paradise on top at
5,500. Request ILS approach to Chino 26 Right."

Request for an ILS approach is not a request for an IFR clearance using
CRAFT as guidelines. You have not met the C part of CRAFT

ATC: "34B squawk 2133...34B radar contact, fly present heading for the
Chino ILS 26 Right. Descend and maintain 4,000."

Did the controller issue an IFR clearance?

Nope, you were not cleared, nor were you on an IFR flight. You were VFR in
the beginning and was treated accordingly from what I have been reading.

ATC does not know what is outside YOUR window (VMC or IMC). The above ATC
instructions does not meet the C part of CRAFT (Cleared to)

Allen