Radio acting up

On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 6:33:54 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 6:06:49 PM UTC-5, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 10:07:08 AM UTC-5, Dan Daly wrote:
On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 10:49:17 PM UTC-5, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
Hello all,

My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?

Thanks,

3Y

Ship was rewired by the previous owner, not sure if he used aircraft wiring. Batteries are lead acid 12v. 12amp hr, one new, one about two years old. Currently one battery supplies everything, instruments are Power Flarm Core w/ Butterfly display, Cambridge 302 vario, Borgelt B400 vario, Oudie 2, Becker 4201 radio, Trigg 21 transponder. Batteries both have about 12..8 volts just off the charger. Voltage at radio drops about 2.5 to 3 volts when transmitting and about .4volts at the battery when transmitting.

Your power budget:

Core - 165 mA
Butterfly - 45 mA
302 - 350mA
B400 - 200 mA
Oudie 2 - 200 - 220 mA plus 200 mA if battery is being charged
TT21 - 200 mA
So about 1180 mA with no radio (1380 mA if Oudie is charging - I don't know if you bring it to the airport charged or not)

The radio: Becker 4201 - 70 mA standby 500 mA receive 2.5 A transmit
So draw is (worst case, Oudie is charging):
1.45 A radio standby
1.88 A radio receive (don't know how active your frequency is)
3.88 A radio transmit

That's a lot of draw for one battery when the radio is transmitting. I have an ammeter that I put in between my battery and the glider to test draw - inexpensive way of looking at what I'm asking the battery to do. By all means, check the wiring, but you might be better off with two circuits (my opinion).

An excellent presentation on glider avionic wiring is the "2015 Nephi OLC Camp presentation", which you can download at: http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations/. Excellent in all respects - note the comments on wire size, and circuit breakers... Great work by John DeRosa.

Excellent post, lot's of thought & research.

My only issue is...... why the drop at the radio (in voltage) but not the drop at the battery (in voltage)?
If the total system was overdrawing the battery (or, the drop when transmitting...), wouldn't you think the battery voltage drop would be close to the voltage drop at the radio?

Just asking....

Distribution losses . Wire size, terminations, current protection, ground problems, etc.
UH

Great reply.... look at this list (not the be all to end all...) to cover wire size vs. ampacity.
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

Thus my comment, start at the issue, go backwards until you find the least drop and try to fix it.
I agree circuit breakers are a bad thing in general.

Breakers & fuses are to protect the wiring, if they help out equipment, great. DO NOT put in a bigger (higher amp rating breaker/fuse) to "fix" trips. Wiring WILL become a "light bulb" likely causing the insulation to start a fire. Not my idea of a good scene.....

Not sure how "aircraft wire vs. any other wire affects loss", but it's more of a "what will the FAA (or whatever governing body has the say in your country) say about the wire your're using?".
Technically you may exceed the reg's, but that does NOT mean you won't get failed.
Good intentions don't mean bupkiss to the fed's.

Crimp connectors need the proper crimp, my experience is a "Horseshoe crimp" far surpasses any other crimp. Period.
Solid wire is a MAJOR "no-no" unless soldered.
"So sayeth a facilities guy with thousands of connections to monitor". I don't remember ANY crimp connector mfgr (T&B, AMP, Amphenol, etc.) giving a rating for a crimp connector to a solid wire (not to a "semi-solid wire like topcoat copper).

Not picking fights, just trying to lay the groundwork for a good power distribution.

At 00:03 27 January 2016, Charlie M. UH & 002 owner/pilot wrote:
On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 6:33:54 PM UTC-5,
wro=
te:
On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 6:06:49 PM UTC-5, Charlie M. (UH & 002
ow=
ner/pilot) wrote:
On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 10:07:08 AM UTC-5, Dan Daly wrote:
On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 10:49:17 PM UTC-5, Blake Seese 3Y
wrot=
e:
On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y
wro=
te:
Hello all,
=20
My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a
cyc=
lic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you
get=
s about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work
as=
they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that
h=
as been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?
=20
Thanks,
=20
3Y
=20
Ship was rewired by the previous owner, not sure if he used
aircraf=
t wiring. Batteries are lead acid 12v. 12amp hr, one new, one about two
yea=
rs old. Currently one battery supplies everything, instruments are Power
Fl=
arm Core w/ Butterfly display, Cambridge 302 vario, Borgelt B400 vario,
Oud=
ie 2, Becker 4201 radio, Trigg 21 transponder. Batteries both have about
12=
..8 volts just off the charger. Voltage at radio drops about 2.5 to 3
volts
=
when transmitting and about .4volts at the battery when transmitting.
=20
Your power budget:
=20
Core - 165 mA
Butterfly - 45 mA
302 - 350mA
B400 - 200 mA
Oudie 2 - 200 - 220 mA plus 200 mA if battery is being charged
TT21 - 200 mA
So about 1180 mA with no radio (1380 mA if Oudie is charging - I
don'=
t know if you bring it to the airport charged or not)
=20
The radio: Becker 4201 - 70 mA standby 500 mA receive 2.5 A
transmit
So draw is (worst case, Oudie is charging):
1.45 A radio standby
1.88 A radio receive (don't know how active your frequency is)
3.88 A radio transmit
=20
That's a lot of draw for one battery when the radio is
transmitting.
=
I have an ammeter that I put in between my battery and the glider to
test
=
draw - inexpensive way of looking at what I'm asking the battery to do.
By
=
all means, check the wiring, but you might be better off with two
circuits
=
(my opinion).
=20
An excellent presentation on glider avionic wiring is the "2015
Nephi=
OLC Camp presentation", which you can download at:
http://aviation.derosaw=
eb.net/presentations/. Excellent in all respects - note the comments on
wi=
re size, and circuit breakers... Great work by John DeRosa.
=20
Excellent post, lot's of thought & research.
=20
My only issue is...... why the drop at the radio (in voltage) but not
t=
he drop at the battery (in voltage)?
If the total system was overdrawing the battery (or, the drop when
tran=
smitting...), wouldn't you think the battery voltage drop would be close
to=
the voltage drop at the radio?
=20
Just asking....
=20
Distribution losses . Wire size, terminations, current protection,
ground=
problems, etc.
UH

Great reply.... look at this list (not the be all to end all...) to cover
w=
ire size vs. ampacity.
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

Thus my comment, start at the issue, go backwards until you find the
least
=
drop and try to fix it.
I agree circuit breakers are a bad thing in general.

Breakers & fuses are to protect the wiring, if they help out equipment,
gre=
at. DO NOT put in a bigger (higher amp rating breaker/fuse) to "fix"
trips.=
Wiring WILL become a "light bulb" likely causing the insulation to start
a=
fire. Not my idea of a good scene.....

Not sure how "aircraft wire vs. any other wire affects loss", but it's
more=
of a "what will the FAA (or whatever governing body has the say in your
co=
untry) say about the wire your're using?".
Technically you may exceed the reg's, but that does NOT mean you won't
get
=
failed.
Good intentions don't mean bupkiss to the fed's.

Crimp connectors need the proper crimp, my experience is a "Horseshoe
crimp=
" far surpasses any other crimp. Period.
Solid wire is a MAJOR "no-no" unless soldered.
"So sayeth a facilities guy with thousands of connections to monitor". I
do=
n't remember ANY crimp connector mfgr (T&B, AMP, Amphenol, etc.) giving a
r=
ating for a crimp connector to a solid wire (not to a "semi-solid wire
like=
topcoat copper).

Not picking fights, just trying to lay the groundwork for a good power
dist=
ribution.

From earlier in this thread, the voltage drop at the radio was 2.5-3v, so
lets use 2.9v. The voltage drop at the battery was reported as 0.4v, so the
voltage dropin the cable is 2.5v.

If we take the current as 4amp, the resistance of the cable between battery
must be 2.5 / 4 = 0.625 ohms!

I don't know what size wire is used, or it's length; but using the table
at http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm clearly see there are bad
connection(s) or the wire is way too small. If it has worked OK before,
then we are looking at connection(s) or end-of-life wire.

On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
Hello all,

My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?

Thanks,

3Y

Well, I finally pulled the panel and started checking connections. I found many loose connections and one case of the insulation being clamped in the contacts. I tinned all wire ends and torqued down all connections. The result is a properly functioning system. There is still a voltage drop at the radio when transmitting but it is now down to less than one volt which seems normal? Also the battery does not discharge as fast as it did before. I left all the instruments on for about six hours and still showed 12.0 volts on the radio display and no cutting out on the radio.

I have to say, the previous owner actually did a very nice job of rewiring the ship, wire size is plenty big, and are clearly labeled, and fused. Seems like the loose connections were just age/vibration, most wire ends were tinned already, I just did the ones that weren't.

Decided to leave it set up just the way it is and run everything off one battery at a time. The ship has two batteries and a switch to select which battery you want. It also has a master switch.

I want to thank everyone for your assistance and advice, this is such a great forum!

Now we just need some lift...

On Friday, January 29, 2016 at 7:43:01 PM UTC-5, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
Hello all,

My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?

Thanks,

3Y

Well, I finally pulled the panel and started checking connections. I found many loose connections and one case of the insulation being clamped in the contacts. I tinned all wire ends and torqued down all connections. The result is a properly functioning system. There is still a voltage drop at the radio when transmitting but it is now down to less than one volt which seems normal? Also the battery does not discharge as fast as it did before. I left all the instruments on for about six hours and still showed 12.0 volts on the radio display and no cutting out on the radio.

I have to say, the previous owner actually did a very nice job of rewiring the ship, wire size is plenty big, and are clearly labeled, and fused. Seems like the loose connections were just age/vibration, most wire ends were tinned already, I just did the ones that weren't.

Decided to leave it set up just the way it is and run everything off one battery at a time. The ship has two batteries and a switch to select which battery you want. It also has a master switch.

I want to thank everyone for your assistance and advice, this is such a great forum!

Now we just need some lift...

Excellent, thanks for the follow-up. Glad you found obvious issues & resolved them. Sounds like you will have a nice working electrical system from now on.
Yes, your voltage drop (at the radio) sounds much more reasonable although maybe a little high.

PS, did you meter your way through the wiring to find the issues, or did you just "wiggle test" connections? Obviously whatever you did worked, just curious.

On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
Hello all,

My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?

Thanks,

3Y

I did meter through to the extent possible and found consistent voltage through the system up to the connection blocks (one for power and one for ground). I checked the connections, fixed and tightened them and that seemed to do it. The wires on the radio harness seem a little small, but they are short, so I think they are ok. I think it is a stock becker wiring harness.

On Saturday, January 30, 2016 at 8:27:18 AM UTC-8, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
Hello all,

My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?

Thanks,

3Y

I did meter through to the extent possible and found consistent voltage through the system up to the connection blocks (one for power and one for ground). I checked the connections, fixed and tightened them and that seemed to do it. The wires on the radio harness seem a little small, but they are short, so I think they are ok. I think it is a stock becker wiring harness.

Measuring voltage with no load can be deceiving.
Wondering if the tinned wires are used in crimp or screw terminal connections, as opposed to tinned prior to solder connections. Tinned wire in a crimp or terminal strip in my experience is a recipe for future looseness.
Jim

On Saturday, January 30, 2016 at 11:51:50 AM UTC-5, JS wrote:

Measuring voltage with no load can be deceiving.
Wondering if the tinned wires are used in crimp or screw terminal connections, as opposed to tinned prior to solder connections. Tinned wire in a crimp or terminal strip in my experience is a recipe for future looseness.
Jim


Solid or "semi-solid" wire should NOT be used in a crimp connector, none I have ever seen are rated/recommended for these wires.
If you just crimp, you will have issues.
If you crimp AND solder, then you will be fine.
Solder (on any kind of wire) for the electrical connection in a crimp connector is the best way to go. The crimp is the mechanical connection while the solder is the electrical connection.

[Semi-solid wire is a stranded wire with a "tin" overcoat holding the strands together as opposed to stranded tin coated wire which is fine in a crimp connector.]

ah no. Do not solder crimp connectors. If you are having to do this to get reliable connections you either do not know what you are doing and/or are using the wrong connectors and crimp tools. Soldering is much less reliable that *well* done crimps and soldering a crimp connector causes issues including solder flow back up the stranded wire making that brittle. Look up any proper instructions for doing professional crimping and this will be made very clear, or get help from a skilled professional and they should kick you out in your arse for such sloppiness.

A properly done crimp connection is a cold-weld joint done under incredible pressure. You will only do these reliably with the right connector and wire guage and a ratcheting or power driven (e.g. As used in manufacturing) swage crimper. Matching the exact manufacturer connector to the crimp tool or replaceable head may be needed to get really good crimps. And in some cases that crimper may cost hundreds of dollars.

There was an earlier comment regarding aircraft wire.
This is a reference to the insulation type.
All wire is copper.
Aircraft wire insulation has been chosen for it's fire resistance and not giving off toxic fumes when overheated.
A short in a 12V glider wiring system, not protected by a fuse can result in a copper wire glowing red hot, and burning off the insulation rather quickly. Spend an extra few bucks on the "aircraft" wire.

There is no real penalty for a wire one size larger than you think you need.. It will run cooler and it will have less voltage drop.

Fuses on the battery can be the best thing you ever did when things go wrong. Those batteries look small, but there is a significant amount of stored energy in them that can start a nifty little fire without proper fusing. Given the propensity for composite materials to burn, little fires don't usually stay little for very long.

SF