ASW 20 Handling Issues?

Very true. I took delivery of a new V2C that was supposed to be adjusted for my weight at the factory. Flew without re-weighting glider. First flight was a great soaring day, thank goodness, took about fours to be able to control glider between 45 - 75 knots. Turns out the tail weight was supposed to be 5 pounds, but factory put in 5 KG! Felt like trying to wrestle a greased pig.

On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 9:11:55 AM UTC-8, wrote:
Anyone purchasing an ASW 20A (actually, ANY glider), should query the previous owner (and assess his/her weight--hopefully without insulting them!), inspect the logbook and placards, and then do a full weight and balance to check the CG before flying it.

Recognizing that this latter time-consuming step may not be done by everyone immediately, at a minimum, inspect the tail for lead weights. In more recent gliders, there's often a battery compartment at the top of the vertical fin. The lead in my ASW 24 lives below the battery there so inspect carefully.

In older gliders, lead was added by removing the rudder and bolting it in the lower fin area. I removed the lead I had installed in my LS 3 when I sold it even though the new owner weighed more than I did. There's a lo-o-o-o-o-ng moment arm all the way back there so a small amount of weight has a fairly significant effect on the CG. It may be difficult or impossible to inspect for this without removing the rudder. Also, weight may have been added to the tailwheel or (in one case I'm aware of) in the tailwheel area itself

Obviously the CG can also be too far forward. I've seen lead weights in the nose installed by lighter pilots. But the too-far-aft CG seems to be more common and insidious.

The rule for CG is: take nothing for granted, even from the factory. I recently spoke with a very careful, highly analytical friend who discovered--after an alarming first flight--that the minimum cockpit weight for his new glider was far higher with the longer wingtips installed than with the short tips.

Taking your CG for granted can be fatal. I am familiar with at least one such stall/spin crash where CG may have been a factor.

Chip Bearden

On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 11:55:40 PM UTC-6, wrote:
The ASW 20 seems to have a reputation for bad behavior in some configurations. Is this reputation deserved or overblown? What has been the experience of those who have owned and flown the glider? Are some variants of the 20 better or worse in terms of handling characteristics?

Tom A

You may have hit the nail when you posted "Some Configurations". Don't put in full landing flaps on an early 20 until you are on final and have the field made. You will be rewarded with the ability to land anywhere. With full flaps it is like flaring a hang glider. Do a weight and balance before you fly if you suspect any undocumented lead in the tail. Using Gerhard's CG recommendation mine stalled and flew like a trainer. I flew a friends 20 and the handling was like balancing on a pin so rigging may be an issue on some of these older ships.
Also, The notion that the 27 is "overrated" is silly. If you get a chance, fly them both and you will go with the 27.

On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 11:31:34 AM UTC-5, WB wrote:
On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 9:59:38 AM UTC-6, Mike the Strike wrote:
I owned WA - Wally Scott's ASW20 for a number of years. It was a while before I discovered he had secreted large amounts of lead in the wings and tail and that the W&B data was completely fictitious. I can confirm that with a CG well aft of the factory permitted range it can depart into a spin quickly and viciously!

With the lead removed and the CG returned to the permitted range, I never experienced another problem. There were reports of a tendency to spin when the "Jesus" landing flap position of early ASW20s was selected, but this again was not a problem I encountered.

Mike

I think the departures that occur in the "Jesus" landing flap position result from pilots realizing too late that they are coming up short and getting too slow in an attempt to make the landing area. My advice to new 20a drivers: If you are going to use full landing flap, don't aim for the near end. Choose a touchdown point in the middle of your chosen landing area!

When i bought my 20c i was instructed by HW to not pull landing flaps until after turning final, both because the stall departure is more sudden and severe, and because you have to be high as hell on base to need landing flaps already.

Obviously in an A model this is even more prounounced.

as far as spinning in flight, we've got ours at 80%, and i have had it break into a spin entry a time or two, but only when i was really muscling the glider around in a thermal. normally it totally behaves. i wouldn't call it any worse than another glider. if you're at the aft limit though, obviously all bets are off...

On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 4:38:03 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 11:55:40 PM UTC-6, wrote:
The ASW 20 seems to have a reputation for bad behavior in some configurations. Is this reputation deserved or overblown? What has been the experience of those who have owned and flown the glider? Are some variants of the 20 better or worse in terms of handling characteristics?

Tom A

You may have hit the nail when you posted "Some Configurations". Don't put in full landing flaps on an early 20 until you are on final and have the field made. You will be rewarded with the ability to land anywhere. With full flaps it is like flaring a hang glider. Do a weight and balance before you fly if you suspect any undocumented lead in the tail. Using Gerhard's CG recommendation mine stalled and flew like a trainer. I flew a friends 20 and the handling was like balancing on a pin so rigging may be an issue on some of these older ships.
Also, The notion that the 27 is "overrated" is silly. If you get a chance, fly them both and you will go with the 27.

i did fly a 27, and i kinda was unimpressed in the difference. having flown against 27's in the past, i can also say that on the east coast a 20 can hang, unless the 27 pilot is s**t hot. i wouldn't pay 3x for a better role rate, and a few more L/D. if the 20 had automatic hookups like a 27, i'd never upgrade. i will say that from a cockpit comfort perspective, the 20 and 27 just work better with my body. i can sit in my 20 for 6 hours and feel great. if i fly a discus or a V2 for that long, my lower back and the back of my knees start hurting.

On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 4:38:03 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 11:55:40 PM UTC-6, wrote:
The ASW 20 seems to have a reputation for bad behavior in some configurations. Is this reputation deserved or overblown? What has been the experience of those who have owned and flown the glider? Are some variants of the 20 better or worse in terms of handling characteristics?

Tom A

You may have hit the nail when you posted "Some Configurations". Don't put in full landing flaps on an early 20 until you are on final and have the field made. You will be rewarded with the ability to land anywhere. With full flaps it is like flaring a hang glider. Do a weight and balance before you fly if you suspect any undocumented lead in the tail. Using Gerhard's CG recommendation mine stalled and flew like a trainer. I flew a friends 20 and the handling was like balancing on a pin so rigging may be an issue on some of these older ships.
Also, The notion that the 27 is "overrated" is silly. If you get a chance, fly them both and you will go with the 27.

i did fly a 27, and i kinda was unimpressed in the difference. having flown against 27's in the past, i can also say that on the east coast a 20 can hang, unless the 27 pilot is s**t hot. i wouldn't pay 3x for a better role rate, and a few more L/D. if the 20 had automatic hookups like a 27, i'd never upgrade. i will say that from a cockpit comfort perspective, the 20 and 27 just work better with my body. i can sit in my 20 for 6 hours and feel great. if i fly a discus or a V2 for that long, my lower back and the back of my knees start hurting. but they are both excellent machines too. the ventussbx was the most beautifully handling glider i've ever flown.

Le mercredi 8 novembre 2017 14:38:12 UTC+1, ND a écritÂ*:
On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 4:38:03 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 11:55:40 PM UTC-6, wrote:
The ASW 20 seems to have a reputation for bad behavior in some configurations. Is this reputation deserved or overblown? What has been the experience of those who have owned and flown the glider? Are some variants of the 20 better or worse in terms of handling characteristics?

Tom A

You may have hit the nail when you posted "Some Configurations". Don't put in full landing flaps on an early 20 until you are on final and have the field made. You will be rewarded with the ability to land anywhere. With full flaps it is like flaring a hang glider. Do a weight and balance before you fly if you suspect any undocumented lead in the tail. Using Gerhard's CG recommendation mine stalled and flew like a trainer. I flew a friends 20 and the handling was like balancing on a pin so rigging may be an issue on some of these older ships.
Also, The notion that the 27 is "overrated" is silly. If you get a chance, fly them both and you will go with the 27.

i did fly a 27, and i kinda was unimpressed in the difference. having flown against 27's in the past, i can also say that on the east coast a 20 can hang, unless the 27 pilot is s**t hot.

That may hold with an ASW20 and and ASW27 both empty.
If conditions are good and the 27 loads up to almost 50 kg/m2, a 20 dowesn't stand a chance.

On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 9:03:30 AM UTC-5, Tango Whisky wrote:
Le mercredi 8 novembre 2017 14:38:12 UTC+1, ND a écritÂ*:
On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 4:38:03 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 11:55:40 PM UTC-6, wrote:
The ASW 20 seems to have a reputation for bad behavior in some configurations. Is this reputation deserved or overblown? What has been the experience of those who have owned and flown the glider? Are some variants of the 20 better or worse in terms of handling characteristics?

Tom A

You may have hit the nail when you posted "Some Configurations". Don't put in full landing flaps on an early 20 until you are on final and have the field made. You will be rewarded with the ability to land anywhere. With full flaps it is like flaring a hang glider. Do a weight and balance before you fly if you suspect any undocumented lead in the tail. Using Gerhard's CG recommendation mine stalled and flew like a trainer. I flew a friends 20 and the handling was like balancing on a pin so rigging may be an issue on some of these older ships.
Also, The notion that the 27 is "overrated" is silly. If you get a chance, fly them both and you will go with the 27.

i did fly a 27, and i kinda was unimpressed in the difference. having flown against 27's in the past, i can also say that on the east coast a 20 can hang, unless the 27 pilot is s**t hot.

That may hold with an ASW20 and and ASW27 both empty.
If conditions are good and the 27 loads up to almost 50 kg/m2, a 20 dowesn't stand a chance.

i did specify east coast. maybe i should have been more clear. northeast.. we don't fly with water most of the time.

On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 6:27:23 AM UTC-8, ND wrote:
On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 9:03:30 AM UTC-5, Tango Whisky wrote:
Le mercredi 8 novembre 2017 14:38:12 UTC+1, ND a écritÂ*:
On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 4:38:03 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 11:55:40 PM UTC-6, wrote:
The ASW 20 seems to have a reputation for bad behavior in some configurations. Is this reputation deserved or overblown? What has been the experience of those who have owned and flown the glider? Are some variants of the 20 better or worse in terms of handling characteristics?

Tom A

You may have hit the nail when you posted "Some Configurations". Don't put in full landing flaps on an early 20 until you are on final and have the field made. You will be rewarded with the ability to land anywhere. With full flaps it is like flaring a hang glider. Do a weight and balance before you fly if you suspect any undocumented lead in the tail. Using Gerhard's CG recommendation mine stalled and flew like a trainer. I flew a friends 20 and the handling was like balancing on a pin so rigging may be an issue on some of these older ships.
Also, The notion that the 27 is "overrated" is silly. If you get a chance, fly them both and you will go with the 27.

i did fly a 27, and i kinda was unimpressed in the difference. having flown against 27's in the past, i can also say that on the east coast a 20 can hang, unless the 27 pilot is s**t hot.

That may hold with an ASW20 and and ASW27 both empty.
If conditions are good and the 27 loads up to almost 50 kg/m2, a 20 dowesn't stand a chance.

i did specify east coast. maybe i should have been more clear. northeast. we don't fly with water most of the time.

Never flown a 20 or 27 (can't fit in them) but flown numerous very long final glides (50+ miles) against numerous examples of both. This is in the west usually with water. There is a huge difference between them. After 50 miles or so the 27 will be a few hundred feet below my 18m, the 20 will be a few thousand.

20 A/C or 20 B?
A 20 B full of ballast goes pretty good in strong conditions (ridge or thermal), I believe the other 20's are "maxed" at 9LBS.

I have flown a 20 C on the Mifflin ridges (central Pennsylvania for those that don't know, home of some great eastern US ridge flying and many records) against Ventus and LS6 at full weight in regionals and Nationals.
Knowing the area and where gaps were, I could gain, then get run over on longer runs due to wing loading.

In terms of flying any 20, pretty nice ship if you mind CG. Flown with and without winglets.
Yes, 20 A at full landing flaps and dive brakes, you go down like a "homesick brick". Every spring, after a few flights, I would arrive on final waaaaay too high, then "hang it all out" and drop like a stone just to get used to the decent rate.


I flew a 20 C with the CG behind the aft limit ONCE by accident (multiple pilots on a single day, I was the lightweight at about 150LBS, decided to fly with more aft CG, didn't know previous 250 pounder did the same......I didn't count lead discs in the nose.......my bad).
A few aggressive thermal "yank, crank and bank" were met with over the top spin entries at altitude.
Owner saw one (while towing) and asked if I was practicing spin recoveries. Well, yes I was, but that was not the intent.

I have to say, all the "AS" gliders I have flown are fairly easy to get into, even for modest time pilots. Get a good briefing, have some time under your belt, practice some more extreme flying as you gain time.

The earlier comment about getting time in a Cessna 150 and trying full flaps, great idea. I went from "SGS" trainers/low performance to 1-35, PIK-20 and one other in quick succession after a few flights in a 150 where I was shown the relationship of flaps and pitch.

A 20 (having divebrakes) can be easier to transition to compared to "flap only" like a 1-35/PIK/etc. For local flying, set thermal flaps, then fly divebrakes until you get the feel.

So, is a 20 a "spin machine"? No, if being mindful of CG. The 80% of CG is likely fine for most flying. A bit further back may gain a tiny bit of performance but spins become more noticeable.

My 20 was well behaved, but if you have the $$$, go for a 27.

+

Much easier for us older folk to rig
Automatic Hookups
More margin in limit airspeeds

-

Smaller O2 bottle courtesy automatic hookups
Carbon fiber fuselage incompatible with internal transponder or flarm
antenna

When buying a single seater, be extra cautious if the seller is heavier
than you. I
took several lead plates above the tailskid out of the 20 after doing a W&B
and
calculating where I wanted the CG. At 80% my 20 was well behaved.

If you happen to get bit by a 25+ kt gust, you may discover some unusual
attitudes that you can't reproduce in better behaved air.