audio of VFR pilot in IFR condictions

"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote:
I just think that it would be prudent to have controllers
that were also pilots,

Do you think it would be practical for the FAA to make it a requirement?
The gov't would have to bear the cost of initial and recurrent training,
insurance, et c. for thousands of controllers, not to mention the
typically bloated federal overhead of administering such a thing. One
shudders to think...
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 17:30:03 -0600, "Dan Luke"
wrote:

Do you think it would be practical for the FAA to make it a requirement?
The gov't would have to bear the cost of initial and recurrent training,
insurance, et c. for thousands of controllers, not to mention the
typically bloated federal overhead of administering such a thing. One
shudders to think...

Where I live (Germany), controllers at least get a significant amount
of training in a simulator and take several jumpseat rides on airline
flights.

Do they have similar requirements in the US, too?

Tobias

"Tobias Schnell" wrote:
Where I live (Germany), controllers at least get a significant amount
of training in a simulator and take several jumpseat rides on airline
flights.

Do they have similar requirements in the US, too?

I believe not. There was a familiarization program whereby controllers
could, at their option, take jumpseat rides on airline flights, but I
don't know if it is still allowed after 9/11.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

Dan Luke wrote:

Do they have similar requirements in the US, too?

I believe not. There was a familiarization program whereby controllers
could, at their option, take jumpseat rides on airline flights, but I
don't know if it is still allowed after 9/11.

At an AOPA seminar a while back, they played a recording of someone that had
experienced a vacuum failure in IMC (this recording might too be available
somewhere on the 'net). It included the dialog between the controller to
whom the pilot was speaking and another controller (or perhaps a facility
manager or some such).

The controller to whom the pilot was speaking was obviously completely
unaware of the nature - of the seriousness - of the failure. It was as if
the pilot were unable to keep his aircraft clean because of the lack of a
vacuum.

But the recording's "lesson" was that we as pilots need to be completely
clear with controllers. Don't assume, for example, that they're familiar
with aircraft failure modes. If you've lost instruments, say that you've
lost intruments (and which!). This may still not be completely understood,
but it should at least sound more serious than "vacuum failure" to someone
that thinks a vacuum is only a household appliance.

- Andrew

"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote in message
...
Why was that surprising?

--
John T

Me again..... I just think that it would be prudent to have controllers
that were also pilots, just as it is prudent for (at least it is required
by
law, in parts of California) food service workers to have some training in
handling choking problems.


Good pilots don't necessarily make good controllers, and visa versa.
Different mental and physical skill sets are required to do the jobs. In my
experience, most people, most pilots included, don't seem to have what it
takes to do the radar ATC part. Not to mention the non-radar geometry and
math part.

It is also my experience that an overwhelming majority of the persons
employed as air traffic controllers, especially in the higher-level,
higher-complexity radar facilities, don't have what it takes to be aviators.
They either lack apptitude, coordination or above all (and most sadly) even
any interest in personally piloting an aircraft. Many of them don't even
*like* airplanes...

Chip, ZTL

Andrew Gideon wrote in message gonline.com...

But the recording's "lesson" was that we as pilots need to be completely
clear with controllers. Don't assume, for example, that they're familiar
with aircraft failure modes. If you've lost instruments, say that you've
lost intruments (and which!). This may still not be completely understood,
but it should at least sound more serious than "vacuum failure" to someone
that thinks a vacuum is only a household appliance.


Excellent point. Several years ago I told a controller I was
inbound with a mag failure and the remaining mag was a little rough.
He didn't have a clue about what I was saying, and told me so. When I
told him that one of my engine's ignition systems was dead and the
backup didn't sound too healthy, he got the picture right away.
Cleared the pattern, cleared me for any runway and offered to roll the
fire trucks.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

"Chip Jones" wrote:
Many of them don't even *like* airplanes...

That fairly describes a controller acquaintence of mine. He loves his
job, but wouldn't get in a light airplane unless you forced him at
gunpoint. He is virtually clueless about airplanes and flying, and
thinks another controller at his facility who became a pilot is nuts.

He's an extreme case, but most of the controllers I've met are somewhat
indifferent to aviation outside of their profession. Pilots should never
assume the controller they're talking to understands technical aviation
terms. They *all* understand "emergency," though.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

John Galban wrote:


Excellent point. Several years ago I told a controller I was
inbound with a mag failure and the remaining mag was a little rough.
He didn't have a clue about what I was saying, and told me so. When I
told him that one of my engine's ignition systems was dead and the
backup didn't sound too healthy, he got the picture right away.

You're fortunate. The controller in the recording I heard at that seminar
did think she understood...and was mistaken.

No, that's not quite correct. It was obvious from her conversation with the
next controller that she knew she did not. But she didn't care enough to
get a clarification...or she didn't think the clarification would change
anything.

What can we expect from ATC in the case of a gyro or vacuum failure? Will
they know to avoid altitude changes and turns concurrently, for example, or
do we need to apply "unable"?

Obviously, the latter is always available to us. But I'm curious as to
whether ATC is trained in matters such as this. They are taught, for
example, about no-gyro turns, so there's *something* on this topic in their
training. How extensive?

- Andrew

"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote in message
m...
I was surprised to learn that one of the controllers at another airport
I've
flown to in the past, actually had never been a pilot NOR ever BEEN IN a
G.A. aircraft.

I think here in the UK a controller has to do some PPL training. Most
controllers I know have their PPLs. One I talked to hated flying and
did his 20 hours (if I remember correctly) just because he had to do it.

Paul