If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Flying in the USA vs. Europe
As many of you know, I'm currently on a "barnstorming tour" around the
Eastern half of America, flying wherever the weather is best, and enjoying the scenery along the way. Since Sunday we've flown from Iowa City, IA to First Flight (Kill Devil Hills, NC), to Ocracoke Island, to Beaufort, NC, to Huntsville, Alabama, to Memphis, Tennessee. We'll be flying home tomorrow, completing a relatively simple VFR flight of 1977 miles. Just for fun, I have overlaid the flight plan we're currently enjoying on a map of Europe. The results are stunning, to me, as for the same expenditure of time we could easily have flown the following route in Europe: London, United Kingdom (completely over-flying Germany) to Vienna, Austria Vienna, Austria to Milan, Italy Milan, Italy to Madrid, Spain During this flight we would have overflown nine (or more) countries, with all the complications inherent with that task, covering much of Europe. By comparison, this flight in America has barely scratched the Eastern Seaboard. Considering that our current flight has been almost effortless, with minimal contact with air traffic control (VFR flight following, and, of course, interaction with control towers at larger airfields), with no landing fees, only a couple of parking fees, and the highest price per gallon of avgas paid (thus far) pegged at $4.10 per gallon, it really is a truism that you simply can't beat GA flying in the good ol' U.S. of A. It would be an interesting (if frightening) exercise to see what this flight in Europe would entail, from a financial as well as technical standpoint. Can any or our European brethren take a whack at it? -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA (Presently in Memphis, TN) Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Flying in the USA vs. Europe
Jay Honeck writes:
Just for fun, I have overlaid the flight plan we're currently enjoying on a map of Europe. The results are stunning, to me, as for the same expenditure of time we could easily have flown the following route in Europe: London, United Kingdom (completely over-flying Germany) to Vienna, Austria Vienna, Austria to Milan, Italy Milan, Italy to Madrid, Spain Not particularly stunning to me. It's just simple geography. During this flight we would have overflown nine (or more) countries, with all the complications inherent with that task, covering much of Europe. By comparison, this flight in America has barely scratched the Eastern Seaboard. Nothing surprising about that, either. Every country in Europe has its own rules for flight, often loosely based on ICAO rules, but still with enough complications to make flight vastly more complicated in Europe. Considering that our current flight has been almost effortless, with minimal contact with air traffic control (VFR flight following, and, of course, interaction with control towers at larger airfields), with no landing fees, only a couple of parking fees, and the highest price per gallon of avgas paid (thus far) pegged at $4.10 per gallon, it really is a truism that you simply can't beat GA flying in the good ol' U.S. of A. It's mainly just a fortuitous consequence of the size of the country. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Flying in the USA vs. Europe
Its size is one of the advantages of living in the United States,
instead of one that's not quite twice the size of Colorado (and getting one's kicks out of simulated flying here).. .. e size of, say, . On Mar 15, 10:34 pm, Mxsmanic wrote: Jay Honeck writes: Just for fun, I have overlaid the flight plan we're currently enjoying on a map of Europe. The results are stunning, to me, as for the same expenditure of time we could easily have flown the following route in Europe: London, United Kingdom (completely over-flying Germany) to Vienna, Austria Vienna, Austria to Milan, Italy Milan, Italy to Madrid, Spain Not particularly stunning to me. It's just simple geography. During this flight we would have overflown nine (or more) countries, with all the complications inherent with that task, covering much of Europe. By comparison, this flight in America has barely scratched the Eastern Seaboard. Nothing surprising about that, either. Every country in Europe has its own rules for flight, often loosely based on ICAO rules, but still with enough complications to make flight vastly more complicated in Europe. Considering that our current flight has been almost effortless, with minimal contact with air traffic control (VFR flight following, and, of course, interaction with control towers at larger airfields), with no landing fees, only a couple of parking fees, and the highest price per gallon of avgas paid (thus far) pegged at $4.10 per gallon, it really is a truism that you simply can't beat GA flying in the good ol' U.S. of A. It's mainly just a fortuitous consequence of the size of the country. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Flying in the USA vs. Europe
"Jay Honeck" wrote in message ups.com... As many of you know, I'm currently on a "barnstorming tour" around the Eastern half of America, flying wherever the weather is best, and enjoying the scenery along the way. Since Sunday we've flown from Iowa City, IA to First Flight (Kill Devil Hills, NC), to Ocracoke Island, to Beaufort, NC, to Huntsville, Alabama, to Memphis, Tennessee. We'll be flying home tomorrow, completing a relatively simple VFR flight of 1977 miles. Just for fun, I have overlaid the flight plan we're currently enjoying on a map of Europe. The results are stunning, to me, as for the same expenditure of time we could easily have flown the following route in Europe: London, United Kingdom (completely over-flying Germany) to Vienna, Austria Vienna, Austria to Milan, Italy Milan, Italy to Madrid, Spain During this flight we would have overflown nine (or more) countries, with all the complications inherent with that task, covering much of Europe. By comparison, this flight in America has barely scratched the Eastern Seaboard. Considering that our current flight has been almost effortless, with minimal contact with air traffic control (VFR flight following, and, of course, interaction with control towers at larger airfields), with no landing fees, only a couple of parking fees, and the highest price per gallon of avgas paid (thus far) pegged at $4.10 per gallon, it really is a truism that you simply can't beat GA flying in the good ol' U.S. of A. It would be an interesting (if frightening) exercise to see what this flight in Europe would entail, from a financial as well as technical standpoint. Can any or our European brethren take a whack at it? Well for a start, it would require considerably more planning but bank on avgas costing in the region of $9 a gallon. The particular issues would be understanding the different airspace rules. Leaving somewhere around London, you would need to avoid the London TMA which is class A from the surface around Heathrow and with a base of 2500' for a considerable distance after that. First thing would be to perhaps land ay Lydd and top off the tanks and get duty free gas but it will cost you $20 to do so. You can clear customs there. Then across the English Channel to say Le Touquet in France. Must give them 2 hours notice so customs will be ready again. Get there over for lunchtime and you may have to wait. About $15 to land. This is when you really need to study the map. Lots of restricted airspace (for the French airforce) and many airfields, the problem being that only French is spoken at them. France is where you get class E airspace for the first time (there is non in England). If you choose the charts from each country you will find that they are all a bit different. Jeppesen do a Europe wide set with a same look but the are crap. Again as you mosey round Paris there is loads of low level class A to avoid, so its off over Germany. Here you will need to ensure you have a noise certificate. No certificate then the landing fees will be more than if you have a certificate. and so it goes on... As far as talking to ATC is concerned, the European ATC have better English accents than many places in the US where frankly they could be speaking a foreign language. But they are strict on correct RT. Affirmative is not allowed, a-ffirm is the correct term, (avoids confusion with negative) It only gets better and such trips are often done. It makes flying more of a challenge but more interesting. |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Flying in the USA vs. Europe
Jay Honeck schrieb:
It would be an interesting (if frightening) exercise to see what this flight in Europe would entail, from a financial as well as technical standpoint. Can any or our European brethren take a whack at it? I would refuse to be called your brother, but to answer your question: If you fly IFR, it's no deal at all. Just file your flight plan and go. If you (as me) fly purely VFR, a bit more preparation is needed, but it's not frightening at all. Granted, you can't just hop in your plane and leave, such a flight needs some preparation. For me, this is a main part of the fun: I go to other places which are actually different, and I expect them to be so. Culture is different, rules are different, language is different, food is different, people are different... There's just no point in travelling when everything is the same. European countries adhere to the ICAO rules, but each country has its particularities. You could go the hard core route and wade through all the AIPs of those contries. Nearly nobody does this. (I'm one of those rare maniacs who do, but I'm somewhat particular in this.) Most just buy (besides the maps, of course) the Jeppesen Bottlang of those countries, an essential for such a flight. It not only contains all the VACs, but all those particularities are nicely listed on three pages per country. Read them, accept them, adhere to them. No big deal at all. Your described flight would have taken maybe three days to prepare for a first timer, and not more than your flight in the USA if you already know the rules of the countries involved. Actually, it's a basic mindset. US Americans often expect the whole world to be the same as it is at home, more or less. If something is different, then it's a hassle. Europeans on the other hand grow up in a world which is a patchwork of small countries, each with its particularities. They take the differences as ganted. Actually, it's this what makes living in Europe interesting. I admit that this is grossly oversimplified, but you get the idea. As to the financial question: Yes, flying in Europe is a lot more expensive. Take a factor of 2 as a rough estimate. Stefan |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Flying in the USA vs. Europe
Jay,
It would be an interesting (if frightening) exercise to see what this flight in Europe would entail, from a financial as well as technical standpoint. Can any or our European brethren take a whack at it? What are you trying to get at? We all know flying is more expensive here. That's the same for short and long flights. Other than that, crossing borders just requires a little more planning, filing a flight plan and possibly a requirement to land at a select airport of entry. The differences in rules from country to country, if they apply, are often minimal - and they are spelled out in detail in the Jeppesen charts you'd have to get anyway. So you read up on that. Oh, if you avoid the UK, that saves you a lot of trouble, since they are not as integral a part of the EU as most countries in continental Europe. That's all. No big deal. -- Thomas Borchert (EDDH) |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Flying in the USA vs. Europe
Chris,
no offense meant, but I fail to see the impact of the "problems" you make of a simple long-distance trip. bank on avgas costing in the region of $9 a gallon. That's the way it is in Europe, no matter how far you fly. Leaving somewhere around London, you would need to avoid the London TMA which is class A from the surface around Heathrow and with a base of 2500' for a considerable distance after that. So what? It's on the map. Class A is a non-VFR space everywhere in the world. And the basic process of avoiding airspace can be found everywhere, too. First thing would be to perhaps land ay Lydd and top off the tanks and get duty free gas but it will cost you $20 to do so. There's a landing fee. Another fact of flying in Europe, no matter how far. You can clear customs there. Then across the English Channel to say Le Touquet in France. Must give them 2 hours notice so customs will be ready again. So you do that. Or you chose an airport with 24H customs. You're crossing a border, coming from a country refusing to sign the Schengen accord. What do you expect? This is when you really need to study the map. Lots of restricted airspace (for the French airforce) and many airfields, the problem being that only French is spoken at them. Ah. Just try English. It's a non-issue. And the restricted airspace cn mostly be crossed after talking to a controller. France is where you get class E airspace for the first time (there is non in England). So? How does that complicate your flying there? If you choose the charts from each country you will find that they are all a bit different. Jeppesen do a Europe wide set with a same look but the are crap. I beg to differ. I use them regularly for my flying. Again as you mosey round Paris there is loads of low level class A to avoid, so its off over Germany. Again: Are we pretending there's no airspace in the US? At least we don't have a King-like president bringing his restricted airspace wherever he travels on a whim. Here you will need to ensure you have a noise certificate. No certificate then the landing fees will be more than if you have a certificate. A money thing. And we know flying is more expensive in Europe... As far as talking to ATC is concerned, the European ATC have better English accents than many places in the US where frankly they could be speaking a foreign language. Yup. Affirmative is not allowed, a-ffirm is the correct term, (avoids confusion with negative) That's ICAO standard. -- Thomas Borchert (EDDH) |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Flying in the USA vs. Europe
Jay, there are counties in Texas bigger than countries in Europe... denny |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Flying in the USA vs. Europe
On Mar 16, 2:31 am, "Jay Honeck" wrote:
As many of you know, I'm currently on a "barnstorming tour" around the Eastern half of America, flying wherever the weather is best, and enjoying the scenery along the way. Since Sunday we've flown from Iowa City, IA to First Flight (Kill Devil Hills, NC), to Ocracoke Island, to Beaufort, NC, to Huntsville, Alabama, to Memphis, Tennessee. We'll be flying home tomorrow, completing a relatively simple VFR flight of 1977 miles. Just for fun, I have overlaid the flight plan we're currently enjoying on a map of Europe. The results are stunning, to me, as for the same expenditure of time we could easily have flown the following route in Europe: London, United Kingdom (completely over-flying Germany) to Vienna, Austria Vienna, Austria to Milan, Italy Milan, Italy to Madrid, Spain During this flight we would have overflown nine (or more) countries, with all the complications inherent with that task, covering much of Europe. By comparison, this flight in America has barely scratched the Eastern Seaboard. Considering that our current flight has been almost effortless, with minimal contact with air traffic control (VFR flight following, and, of course, interaction with control towers at larger airfields), with no landing fees, only a couple of parking fees, and the highest price per gallon of avgas paid (thus far) pegged at $4.10 per gallon, it really is a truism that you simply can't beat GA flying in the good ol' U.S. of A. It would be an interesting (if frightening) exercise to see what this flight in Europe would entail, from a financial as well as technical standpoint. Can any or our European brethren take a whack at it? -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA (Presently in Memphis, TN) Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" As others already have mentioned, it is just more expensive and it takes somewhat more preperation. Looking at your European route, some mountain flying lessons are needed, you will be in the Alps. -Kees. BTW On a world map continental Europe appears to be larger than continental US. |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Flying in the USA vs. Europe
"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message ...
Other than that, crossing borders just requires a little more planning, filing a flight plan and possibly a requirement to land at a select airport of entry. The differences in rules from country to country, if they apply, are often minimal - and they are spelled out in detail in the Jeppesen charts you'd have to get anyway. So you read up on that. Oh, if you avoid the UK, that saves you a lot of trouble, since they are not as integral a part of the EU as most countries in continental Europe. That's all. No big deal. -- Thomas Borchert (EDDH) I think that many pilots here in the US that live far from borders think of it as a hassle to fly past them. Just as some pilots think it is a major issue to fly over water. But try flying in the State of Florida, for one we are surrounded by water and we have an international crossing on all sides but one. And we are not talking about a major distance. For example: Bahamas are only 45 miles away and they have landing requirements and customs decals that must be purchased prior to leaving the mainland. The Bahamian government understands that many pilots on the mainland feel it would be too difficult to visit them that they have created a free DVD that you can get from their website that explains how easy it is to come to their country. On the other coast of Florida you have Mexico that you can fly to and they also have customs to deal with, but it has been a non-issue on the trips we have made. If anything, returning to the US has been where the really travel issues have started. Oh and let me not forget that if you travel south out of Florida just 90 miles you'll be shot down no questions asked. I think it is all up to what your accustom to, I have friends that don't fly to south Florida because of all the restricted airspace and class B airports in that area, but it has never been an issue for those that do it day in and day out. And to my fellow US Pilots: How often do you get to log a destination that does not start with a K? Does your log book even use the four letter ICAO? Or has travel been so limited to US destinations only that there is no need to differentiate? TTFN - (not an airport code) David |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
GPS in Europe | Doug | Piloting | 6 | June 26th 06 02:35 AM |
Cost of Flying in Europe | john smith | Piloting | 9 | October 3rd 05 02:09 AM |
Flying Holiday in Europe | Udo Rumpf | Soaring | 17 | March 23rd 05 03:08 PM |
Flying to Europe | Bob Webster | Instrument Flight Rules | 19 | April 26th 04 04:08 PM |
Flying to Europe | Bob Webster | Piloting | 19 | April 26th 04 04:08 PM |