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Flarm Target direction



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 1st 21, 06:15 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Anton Lawrence
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Posts: 3
Default Flarm Target direction

Earlier in the year I had a close call, the Flarm was going off with multiple targets most of which I could visually identify. One I did not see, we both had to turn sharply left to avoid a straight on collision.
Apparently Flarm calculates the potential collision taking into account all directions of movement including turn radius. If I had the Flarm view on the S100 set to the correct zoom I most likely would have picked up the circling glider heading my way. Same possibly goes for the other glider.
Accepting the Flarm view may have shown the exact position of the target, when it switches to the warning mode is it still pointing to the target or the potential collision point?
To clarify I was flying straight and level the target was in a thermal, probably banked 30deg turning left.
Cheers
Anton L
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  #2  
Old June 1st 21, 01:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Daly[_2_]
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Posts: 718
Default Flarm Target direction

On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 1:15:57 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Earlier in the year I had a close call, the Flarm was going off with multiple targets most of which I could visually identify. One I did not see, we both had to turn sharply left to avoid a straight on collision.
Apparently Flarm calculates the potential collision taking into account all directions of movement including turn radius. If I had the Flarm view on the S100 set to the correct zoom I most likely would have picked up the circling glider heading my way. Same possibly goes for the other glider.
Accepting the Flarm view may have shown the exact position of the target, when it switches to the warning mode is it still pointing to the target or the potential collision point?
To clarify I was flying straight and level the target was in a thermal, probably banked 30deg turning left.
Cheers
Anton L


I can't speak to the FLARMview (you might try reading the manual), but from the Butterfly Display, it says in "Traffic Warnings":
"The warning-screen shows the viewing angle to the most dangerous collision threat. A
compass-style indicator gives information about the horizontal viewing angle to the threat."

In addition, the FTD-012 Interface Control Document (version 7.12, July 2019), page 20, speaking on PFLAA sentence (data on other proximate aircraft), says it delivers " Relative position in meters true north from own position... Relative position in meters true east from own position... Relative vertical separation in meters above own position. Negative values indicate that the other aircraft is lower.")

So, it points to where the threat currently is, which makes sense, because it gives a direction for you to look in. If it pointed to where the threat will be, there will be nothing there.

I am interested why you both turned left. I was taught that aircraft approaching head-on both were required to alter course to the right. Perhaps it's different where you fly.
  #3  
Old June 1st 21, 05:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ramy[_2_]
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Posts: 601
Default Flarm Target direction

I believe flarm is more effective for situational awareness than for last second collision avoidance since it does not give a resolution and as such once you get the alarm there is very little time to interpret the information correctly, locate the target and react correctly, especially if you didn’t already have visual contact.
As such make sure your flarm display, zoom level, audio alerts and even flarmnet are all configured and set in an effective way to provide situational awareness and avoid the situation of collision avoidance to start with.

Ramy

On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 5:22:39 AM UTC-7, Dan Daly wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 1:15:57 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Earlier in the year I had a close call, the Flarm was going off with multiple targets most of which I could visually identify. One I did not see, we both had to turn sharply left to avoid a straight on collision.
Apparently Flarm calculates the potential collision taking into account all directions of movement including turn radius. If I had the Flarm view on the S100 set to the correct zoom I most likely would have picked up the circling glider heading my way. Same possibly goes for the other glider.
Accepting the Flarm view may have shown the exact position of the target, when it switches to the warning mode is it still pointing to the target or the potential collision point?
To clarify I was flying straight and level the target was in a thermal, probably banked 30deg turning left.
Cheers
Anton L

I can't speak to the FLARMview (you might try reading the manual), but from the Butterfly Display, it says in "Traffic Warnings":
"The warning-screen shows the viewing angle to the most dangerous collision threat. A
compass-style indicator gives information about the horizontal viewing angle to the threat."

In addition, the FTD-012 Interface Control Document (version 7.12, July 2019), page 20, speaking on PFLAA sentence (data on other proximate aircraft), says it delivers " Relative position in meters true north from own position... Relative position in meters true east from own position... Relative vertical separation in meters above own position. Negative values indicate that the other aircraft is lower.")

So, it points to where the threat currently is, which makes sense, because it gives a direction for you to look in. If it pointed to where the threat will be, there will be nothing there.

I am interested why you both turned left. I was taught that aircraft approaching head-on both were required to alter course to the right. Perhaps it's different where you fly.

  #4  
Old June 1st 21, 06:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Daly[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 718
Default Flarm Target direction

On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 12:26:36 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
I believe flarm is more effective for situational awareness than for last second collision avoidance since it does not give a resolution and as such once you get the alarm there is very little time to interpret the information correctly, locate the target and react correctly, especially if you didn’t already have visual contact.
As such make sure your flarm display, zoom level, audio alerts and even flarmnet are all configured and set in an effective way to provide situational awareness and avoid the situation of collision avoidance to start with.

Ramy


Hi Ramy. I guess my problem with that is that you spend a lot of time with head in cockpit gaining this SA, and less with eyes out, doing see and avoid for traffic that isn't FLARM (or in the case of the U.S., ADS-B) equipped (and properly functioning). I agree if you do not practice and work it into your motor memory, it might be a problem. For me - alarm; look at display, up to the correct o'clock to acquire visually, then if not, what vertical - above/below, angle again. If still alarming, and in front, turn right to avoid. You have 19 seconds. If you continue to get alarms, you'll collide if you don't do something. If you don't practice this drill, you don't get better.

Of course, all bets are off if one of the flarms is shut off or broken, not updated, or with a poor installation.
  #5  
Old June 1st 21, 07:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Morgan Hall[_2_]
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Posts: 1
Default Flarm Target direction

One key to situational awareness is knowing what information to essentially discard. If you're approaching 3 targets and visually acquire 2 of them and can rule them out as a risk, don't focus on them. All too often people focus on the glider circling 600ft above/below them and ignore the fact that the glider they are going to not see and hit is the one at the same altitude.

I try not to lose track of the other gliders, but once they are determined to not be an immediate threat, I'm back to looking for the "invisible" target that could be a threat. Especially important in areas where you have a mix of FLARM and no-FLARM traffic and it is easy to fixate on a known FLARM target.

Morgan


On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 10:25:29 AM UTC-7, Dan Daly wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 12:26:36 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
I believe flarm is more effective for situational awareness than for last second collision avoidance since it does not give a resolution and as such once you get the alarm there is very little time to interpret the information correctly, locate the target and react correctly, especially if you didn’t already have visual contact.
As such make sure your flarm display, zoom level, audio alerts and even flarmnet are all configured and set in an effective way to provide situational awareness and avoid the situation of collision avoidance to start with..

Ramy

Hi Ramy. I guess my problem with that is that you spend a lot of time with head in cockpit gaining this SA, and less with eyes out, doing see and avoid for traffic that isn't FLARM (or in the case of the U.S., ADS-B) equipped (and properly functioning). I agree if you do not practice and work it into your motor memory, it might be a problem. For me - alarm; look at display, up to the correct o'clock to acquire visually, then if not, what vertical - above/below, angle again. If still alarming, and in front, turn right to avoid. You have 19 seconds. If you continue to get alarms, you'll collide if you don't do something. If you don't practice this drill, you don't get better.

Of course, all bets are off if one of the flarms is shut off or broken, not updated, or with a poor installation.

  #6  
Old June 1st 21, 08:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ramy[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 601
Default Flarm Target direction

The situational awareness can be done with little head in if you set your display to give you audio traffic alerts (not just collision alarms) , and set the ranges such that you only get alerts for relevant traffic, eg no more than 5 miles and 2000 feet altitude range (although for buddy flying you may want flarm range set to max).
Some displays doing better job with audio alerts than others. I am working with LXNAv to improve traffic advisory alerts on LX9000. In most displays as soon as you hear alert you can determine if the traffic can be a threat with a quick glimpse. In most cases you wouldn’t need to make visual contacts.

Ramy

On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 11:06:36 AM UTC-7, wrote:
One key to situational awareness is knowing what information to essentially discard. If you're approaching 3 targets and visually acquire 2 of them and can rule them out as a risk, don't focus on them. All too often people focus on the glider circling 600ft above/below them and ignore the fact that the glider they are going to not see and hit is the one at the same altitude.

I try not to lose track of the other gliders, but once they are determined to not be an immediate threat, I'm back to looking for the "invisible" target that could be a threat. Especially important in areas where you have a mix of FLARM and no-FLARM traffic and it is easy to fixate on a known FLARM target.

Morgan
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 10:25:29 AM UTC-7, Dan Daly wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 12:26:36 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
I believe flarm is more effective for situational awareness than for last second collision avoidance since it does not give a resolution and as such once you get the alarm there is very little time to interpret the information correctly, locate the target and react correctly, especially if you didn’t already have visual contact.
As such make sure your flarm display, zoom level, audio alerts and even flarmnet are all configured and set in an effective way to provide situational awareness and avoid the situation of collision avoidance to start with.

Ramy

Hi Ramy. I guess my problem with that is that you spend a lot of time with head in cockpit gaining this SA, and less with eyes out, doing see and avoid for traffic that isn't FLARM (or in the case of the U.S., ADS-B) equipped (and properly functioning). I agree if you do not practice and work it into your motor memory, it might be a problem. For me - alarm; look at display, up to the correct o'clock to acquire visually, then if not, what vertical - above/below, angle again. If still alarming, and in front, turn right to avoid. You have 19 seconds. If you continue to get alarms, you'll collide if you don't do something. If you don't practice this drill, you don't get better.

Of course, all bets are off if one of the flarms is shut off or broken, not updated, or with a poor installation.

  #7  
Old June 2nd 21, 04:08 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Posts: 1,134
Default Flarm Target direction

For the case of thermalling, tactical displays could do a better job of situational awareness than they typically seem to. The old Winpilot was very good at this, showing all the the targets in the thermal animated on a 3D cylinder in the thermal assistant view. iGlide does a pretty good job at this, showing tracks for all Flarm targets (along with your own). With this type of graphical depiction it takes only about a 1/2 second glance at the display to see where you, and everyone else is. Don't know what the other guys are doing lately. A few years ago XCSoar and SeeYou Mobile were not good at it.

On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 12:06:52 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
The situational awareness can be done with little head in if you set your display to give you audio traffic alerts (not just collision alarms) , and set the ranges such that you only get alerts for relevant traffic, eg no more than 5 miles and 2000 feet altitude range (although for buddy flying you may want flarm range set to max).
Some displays doing better job with audio alerts than others. I am working with LXNAv to improve traffic advisory alerts on LX9000. In most displays as soon as you hear alert you can determine if the traffic can be a threat with a quick glimpse. In most cases you wouldn’t need to make visual contacts.

Ramy
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 11:06:36 AM UTC-7, wrote:
One key to situational awareness is knowing what information to essentially discard. If you're approaching 3 targets and visually acquire 2 of them and can rule them out as a risk, don't focus on them. All too often people focus on the glider circling 600ft above/below them and ignore the fact that the glider they are going to not see and hit is the one at the same altitude.

I try not to lose track of the other gliders, but once they are determined to not be an immediate threat, I'm back to looking for the "invisible" target that could be a threat. Especially important in areas where you have a mix of FLARM and no-FLARM traffic and it is easy to fixate on a known FLARM target.

Morgan
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 10:25:29 AM UTC-7, Dan Daly wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 12:26:36 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
I believe flarm is more effective for situational awareness than for last second collision avoidance since it does not give a resolution and as such once you get the alarm there is very little time to interpret the information correctly, locate the target and react correctly, especially if you didn’t already have visual contact.
As such make sure your flarm display, zoom level, audio alerts and even flarmnet are all configured and set in an effective way to provide situational awareness and avoid the situation of collision avoidance to start with.

Ramy
Hi Ramy. I guess my problem with that is that you spend a lot of time with head in cockpit gaining this SA, and less with eyes out, doing see and avoid for traffic that isn't FLARM (or in the case of the U.S., ADS-B) equipped (and properly functioning). I agree if you do not practice and work it into your motor memory, it might be a problem. For me - alarm; look at display, up to the correct o'clock to acquire visually, then if not, what vertical - above/below, angle again. If still alarming, and in front, turn right to avoid. You have 19 seconds. If you continue to get alarms, you'll collide if you don't do something. If you don't practice this drill, you don't get better.

Of course, all bets are off if one of the flarms is shut off or broken, not updated, or with a poor installation.

  #8  
Old June 2nd 21, 01:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net
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Posts: 276
Default Flarm Target direction

Which FLARM display systems (dedicated or integrated) annunciates
a close target? I.E. "traffic twelve o'clock low".

This seems clearly better to me than just a beep, then having to understand
what a display is telling you, and only then looking out of the cockpit.

I know ClearNav does annunciation and the LxNav 90xx systems does too (I have been told).

Why not the LxNav dedicated FLARM display devices? Why not all devices? Is there a disadvantage to annunciation?

John (OHM)
  #9  
Old June 2nd 21, 06:18 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ramy[_2_]
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Posts: 601
Default Flarm Target direction

Oudie/Seeyou as well, and I am hoping that all the latest displays as well.

Ramy

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 5:46:19 AM UTC-7, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
Which FLARM display systems (dedicated or integrated) annunciates
a close target? I.E. "traffic twelve o'clock low".

This seems clearly better to me than just a beep, then having to understand
what a display is telling you, and only then looking out of the cockpit.

I know ClearNav does annunciation and the LxNav 90xx systems does too (I have been told).

Why not the LxNav dedicated FLARM display devices? Why not all devices? Is there a disadvantage to annunciation?

John (OHM)

  #10  
Old June 2nd 21, 08:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Anton Lawrence
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Posts: 3
Default Flarm Target direction

On Wednesday, 2 June 2021 at 00:22:39 UTC+12, Dan Daly wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 1:15:57 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Earlier in the year I had a close call, the Flarm was going off with multiple targets most of which I could visually identify. One I did not see, we both had to turn sharply left to avoid a straight on collision.
Apparently Flarm calculates the potential collision taking into account all directions of movement including turn radius. If I had the Flarm view on the S100 set to the correct zoom I most likely would have picked up the circling glider heading my way. Same possibly goes for the other glider.
Accepting the Flarm view may have shown the exact position of the target, when it switches to the warning mode is it still pointing to the target or the potential collision point?
To clarify I was flying straight and level the target was in a thermal, probably banked 30deg turning left.
Cheers
Anton L

I can't speak to the FLARMview (you might try reading the manual), but from the Butterfly Display, it says in "Traffic Warnings":
"The warning-screen shows the viewing angle to the most dangerous collision threat. A
compass-style indicator gives information about the horizontal viewing angle to the threat."

In addition, the FTD-012 Interface Control Document (version 7.12, July 2019), page 20, speaking on PFLAA sentence (data on other proximate aircraft), says it delivers " Relative position in meters true north from own position... Relative position in meters true east from own position... Relative vertical separation in meters above own position. Negative values indicate that the other aircraft is lower.")

So, it points to where the threat currently is, which makes sense, because it gives a direction for you to look in. If it pointed to where the threat will be, there will be nothing there.

I am interested why you both turned left. I was taught that aircraft approaching head-on both were required to alter course to the right. Perhaps it's different where you fly.

Yes in retrospect it's obvious that it points to the target not the collision point, what slightly complicated the situation was the opposing glider was circling to the left and I was going straight, hence the initial question of where does the warning point.
The fact the opposing glider was already in a left hand turn is why he went more left and I left the opposite way.
Unlike TCAS, Flarm doesn't tell you how to avoid the collision, that is left to the pilot to decide, if you haven't sighted the opposing aircraft its hard to know what to do, that was my dilemma. In future I'll get out of there if I have any doubt.
 




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