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#21
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I was required to do this in a Blanik L-23 for a BFR a few years back. I
picked a target point right at the threshold, held the slip as long as I dared and watched a lot of airfield go by as I maintained 10-15 ft of altitude. The float in ground effect was impressive. I tried flying mildly cross-coordinated to increase drag. About 2/3 of the way down the field and still at 5-8 ft, I decided to fly the ship onto the ground where I could ground loop it, if necessary, to keep from hitting the fence and trees at the end. Fortunately, the ground loop wasn't necessary. I'm both glad to have had this experience and glad the requirement has been removed. Brent "Roger Worden" wrote in message om... I'm preparing for my Private test, and in discussing it with the local FAA examiner, he indicated that one item on the test is a landing with no drag devices, using only a turning and forward slips. As he explained it, the task in the PTS is to demonstrate the ability to land totally WITHOUT airbrakes, to simulate a landing wherein the airbrakes have failed. Throughout my training I've practiced many turning slips to FINAL APPROACH (to lose altitude) without airbrakes, but I have always ended the slip and landed normally by using the airbrakes. In fact, the PTS says "turning slips to LANDING, with and without the use of drag devices". (See the PTS task below.) He said this landing does not have to be to a precise point. R. TASK: SLIPS TO LANDING REFERENCES: Soaring Flight Manual, Glider Flight Manual. Objective. To determine that the applicant: 1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to forward, side, and turning slips to landing, with and without the use of drag devices. 2. Recognizes the situation where a slip should be used to land in a desired area. 3. Establishes a slip without the use of drag devices. 4. Maintains the desired ground track. 5. Maintains proper approach attitude. 6. Makes smooth, proper, and positive control applications during recovery from the slip. 7. Touches down smoothly within the designated landing area. Working through this with one of my instructors today (a very stable day with absolutely no wind), we had a hard time getting our Blanik L13 to descend steeply enough even with a complete, full-rudder slip. Even after extending the downwind, widening the pattern, and slipping all the way from the base turn, through the base leg, in the final turn and most of the final, we're still too high. We have to resort to using airbrakes or we float the entire length of the field. It would seem that we would need to extend the downwind extraordinarily, or as another instructor suggested, start the pattern uncomfortably low. We already were entering the 45 at 700' AGL instead of the usual 1000' . So two questions, for CFIs or examiners or recent test-takers: 1. Is this the common interpretation of the task below? No drag devices, all the way to the ground? 2. Have you experienced/how would you deal with what seems to be a rather low drag ratio even with a full-rudder slip? |
#22
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This discussion--over whether it's more dangerous to practice
something inherently risky or to learn by doing it the first time--reminds me of checking out as an instructor with a Northeastern U.S. glider club when I was in graduate school there back in the 1970s. The check pilot had me box the wake in the Blanik and then asked me to put some slack in the tow rope and take it out gently. I pulled up a little and then dove slightly to loosen the rope, then waited for the towplane to climb up while I yawed the glider. "Now let's put a *lot* of slack in the rope. I'll do the first one." I watched, fascinated, as the check pilot took us up well over the towplane, then moved out to the side and dove down until the towrope disappeared *behind* the glider. We were still aft of the towplane but I could look out to the side and see the towrope extending past us as far as I could see. The proper recovery technique was to stay above and to the side of the towplane so that as the slack began to come out and you saw the loop going by you from back to front, you could dive and turn in to match speeds. The check pilot did this and it actually worked! I made a couple of tries, the second of which wasn't as bad as the first. I was *really* happy, though, when it was over. Turns out this was a standard practical test item required by the local Designated Examiner (and also high-time glider pilot). I wouldn't want to be held to it because I can't remember the details, but I recall hearing years later about a bad accident in that same area caused by the towrope getting fouled in the elevator or aileron during such a maneuver. Some RAS readers must be familiar with this. Is this maneuver still done? Were there ever any accidents arising from it? And what's today's thinking about the wisdom of this kind of training? Chip Bearden ASW 24 "JB" |
#23
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This discussion--over whether it's more dangerous to practice
something inherently risky or to learn by doing it the first time--reminds me of checking out as an instructor with a Northeastern U.S. glider club when I was in graduate school there back in the 1970s. The check pilot had me box the wake in the Blanik and then asked me to put some slack in the tow rope and take it out gently. I pulled up a little and then dove slightly to loosen the rope, then waited for the towplane to climb up while I yawed the glider. "Now let's put a *lot* of slack in the rope. I'll do the first one." I watched, fascinated, as the check pilot took us up well over the towplane, then moved out to the side and dove down until the towrope disappeared *behind* the glider. We were still aft of the towplane but I could look out to the side and see the towrope extending past us as far as I could see. The proper recovery technique was to stay above and to the side of the towplane so that as the slack began to come out and you saw the loop going by you from back to front, you could dive and turn in to match speeds. The check pilot did this and it actually worked! I made a couple of tries, the second of which wasn't as bad as the first. I was *really* happy, though, when it was over. Turns out this was a standard practical test item required by the local Designated Examiner (and also high-time glider pilot). I wouldn't want to be held to it because I can't remember the details, but I recall hearing years later about a bad accident in that same area caused by the towrope getting fouled in the elevator or aileron during such a maneuver. Some RAS readers must be familiar with this. Is this maneuver still done? Were there ever any accidents arising from it? And what's today's thinking about the wisdom of this kind of training? Chip Bearden ASW 24 "JB" |
#24
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There are certainly some things like low altitude spins that are better
approached by teaching spin avoidance. The risks of training are far higher than any perceived benefit. Slips to a landing are a slightly different situation IMHO. They are highly effective and appropriate in low performance/high drag gliders. The problem is that nowadays, most pilots quickly move to glass. When a pilot graduates to high performance gliders, different techniques are required. Landing a 50:1 glider in a small field is a situation where the spoiler/speed brakes had just better work. Just what are the chances of dive brake failure? Frozen shut? Very few glider pilots fly in icing conditions. Forget to connect them? I'd rather practice assembly checklists and PCC's. If the training is to slip to a position where the approach can be continued with spoilers, what scenario is that training for? (Other than the checkride) There even may be a danger in teaching slips for controlling the approach to landing. A pilot may subconsciously feel he has a slip available if the spoilers don't quite do the job and habitually fly high patterns in a slippery glider until one day he finds that there are really no options beyond the use of spoilers and pattern adjustments. Note that I'm not suggesting that slips be removed from the training syllabus, just that perhaps they should not be taught as a landing aid. Slips to a landing is just so...20th century. Bill Daniels "Chip Bearden" wrote in message om... This discussion--over whether it's more dangerous to practice something inherently risky or to learn by doing it the first time--reminds me of checking out as an instructor with a Northeastern U.S. glider club when I was in graduate school there back in the 1970s. The check pilot had me box the wake in the Blanik and then asked me to put some slack in the tow rope and take it out gently. I pulled up a little and then dove slightly to loosen the rope, then waited for the towplane to climb up while I yawed the glider. "Now let's put a *lot* of slack in the rope. I'll do the first one." I watched, fascinated, as the check pilot took us up well over the towplane, then moved out to the side and dove down until the towrope disappeared *behind* the glider. We were still aft of the towplane but I could look out to the side and see the towrope extending past us as far as I could see. The proper recovery technique was to stay above and to the side of the towplane so that as the slack began to come out and you saw the loop going by you from back to front, you could dive and turn in to match speeds. The check pilot did this and it actually worked! I made a couple of tries, the second of which wasn't as bad as the first. I was *really* happy, though, when it was over. Turns out this was a standard practical test item required by the local Designated Examiner (and also high-time glider pilot). I wouldn't want to be held to it because I can't remember the details, but I recall hearing years later about a bad accident in that same area caused by the towrope getting fouled in the elevator or aileron during such a maneuver. Some RAS readers must be familiar with this. Is this maneuver still done? Were there ever any accidents arising from it? And what's today's thinking about the wisdom of this kind of training? Chip Bearden ASW 24 "JB" |
#25
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What would you use the slips for if not altitude control during landing? Cross wind correction? Tony V. http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING |
#26
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At 19:00 01 November 2004, Chip Bearden wrote:
This discussion--over whether it's more dangerous to practice something inherently risky or to learn by doing it the first time--reminds me of checking out as an instructor with a Northeastern U.S. glider club when I was in graduate school there back in the 1970s. The check pilot had me box the wake in the Blanik and then asked me to put some slack in the tow rope and take it out gently. I pulled up a little and then dove slightly to loosen the rope, then waited for the towplane to climb up while I yawed the glider. 'Now let's put a *lot* of slack in the rope. I'll do the first one.' I watched, fascinated, as the check pilot took us up well over the towplane, then moved out to the side and dove down until the towrope disappeared *behind* the glider. We were still aft of the towplane but I could look out to the side and see the towrope extending past us as far as I could see. The proper recovery technique was to stay above and to the side of the towplane so that as the slack began to come out and you saw the loop going by you from back to front, you could dive and turn in to match speeds. The check pilot did this and it actually worked! I made a couple of tries, the second of which wasn't as bad as the first. I was *really* happy, though, when it was over. Turns out this was a standard practical test item required by the local Designated Examiner (and also high-time glider pilot). I wouldn't want to be held to it because I can't remember the details, but I recall hearing years later about a bad accident in that same area caused by the towrope getting fouled in the elevator or aileron during such a maneuver. Some RAS readers must be familiar with this. Is this maneuver still done? Were there ever any accidents arising from it? And what's today's thinking about the wisdom of this kind of training? Chip Bearden ASW 24 'JB' As a student pilot about 3 years ago, I decided to do a trial membership in a club. I had been flying in a commercial operation. It was much less expensive, although I did have to do work at the field as a member. One of the club's oldest and most experienced instructors took me up for the first time in their 2-33. We did some slack rope recovery that scared the crap out of me. I was used to some slack rope, but he went way over the edge. Their was so much slack rope that we were dangerously close to the tow plane and the rope was hanging way down below us. I was able to recover from the first exercise with some difficulty. He decided to do it again, only closer to the tow plane. Before I knew it, the rope was behind the wing and I could hear it whizzing over the wing as I was yawed. I reached for the release and pulled just as the rope became taught. It snapped and released with 30 feet of the rope hanging over the canopy. The instructor said that we could keep on flying, as there was no noticable damage to the 2-33. After we landed, we got out and inspected the wing. The last 1 1/2 feet of the left aileron was badly mangled and the tow hook was bent sideways. I felt terrible that I had damaged their 2-33 on my first flight, but only until I received a phone call from the president of the club, telling me that it wasn't my fault and the instructor should never have gotten me into that position. Needless to say, I never flew there again and went back to the commercial operation. That instructor is still there, but the tow pilots finally realized how dangerous his slack rope recovery techniques were and they started releasing the tow plane when he got too close. GORDY |
#27
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Todd Pattist wrote: BTW, I don't recall doing it in anything other than a fairly draggy 2-33. You didn't want to have your nose pointed at the towplane tail when the rope came tight so yaw cushioned things, and it was a good idea to tell the Hmmm. I don't follow this. If you yaw you'd be reducing speed, ie. increasing the speed difference between tug and glider producing a more violent jerk on the rope when it came tight. The increased drag while yawing would contribute to the same effect. What am I missing ? CV |
#28
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On 1 Nov 2004 14:52:53 GMT, Nyal Williams
wrote: Here's a radical idea for the ASW-12. Jettison the canopy, on the theory that it will then fly as if dive brakes were open. grin As I recall hearing, the L/D was 28/1 with the drogue deployed. Are there any still flying? Seems I recall a concerted effort to remove them from the market in order to save lives. Afaik by now all 12's have been converted to the 20 flap system with landing setting. Sissies. evil grin Honestly: I admire the boldness of the designer and the pilots to design and fly a glider with an L/D of 50 and no landing flaps in order to gain about one point of L/D. Pretty big ego concerning one's flying skills I guess. Bye Andreas |
#29
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Todd Pattist wrote:
"Bill Daniels" wrote: Note that I'm not suggesting that slips be removed from the training syllabus, just that perhaps they should not be taught as a landing aid. Slips to a landing is just so...20th century. What would you use the slips for if not altitude control during landing? I'm amazed at a proposal to do away with teaching the use of this valuable landing tool. In 5000 hours of soaring, I've had the spoilers freeze shut once. A brief shower shortly before towing off for what eventually turned into a wave flight did the trick. I discovered them frozen at 4000' AGL while descending at the end of the flight, but at 3000 AGL, they unfroze. I had a tail chute, so a slip would not have been needed, even in this case. Has anyone else had spoilers freeze shut without flying in clouds, were it seems like you should be expecting it to happen? -- Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly Eric Greenwell Washington State USA |
#30
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I took my PPG practical a little over a week ago in a 2-33. Did a slip to
landing on final (5-6 kts crosswind) with dive-brakes as needed...but then in a 2-33 a slip is like an anchor. Also did one in the air to track a heading. "Slick" wrote in message ... I just took my exam a little over a year ago. All my examiner wanted was for me to use a full slip during either downwind, base , or final, not all three. I did my slip on downwind and he was fine with it as long as I kept a normal decent and distance from the field. After I turned base I was allowed to use spoilers. Of course, that was here in Ohio where I took my exam. "Roger Worden" wrote in message om... I'm preparing for my Private test, and in discussing it with the local FAA examiner, he indicated that one item on the test is a landing with no drag devices, using only a turning and forward slips. As he explained it, the task in the PTS is to demonstrate the ability to land totally WITHOUT airbrakes, to simulate a landing wherein the airbrakes have failed. Throughout my training I've practiced many turning slips to FINAL APPROACH (to lose altitude) without airbrakes, but I have always ended the slip and landed normally by using the airbrakes. In fact, the PTS says "turning slips to LANDING, with and without the use of drag devices". (See the PTS task below.) He said this landing does not have to be to a precise point. R. TASK: SLIPS TO LANDING REFERENCES: Soaring Flight Manual, Glider Flight Manual. Objective. To determine that the applicant: 1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to forward, side, and turning slips to landing, with and without the use of drag devices. 2. Recognizes the situation where a slip should be used to land in a desired area. 3. Establishes a slip without the use of drag devices. 4. Maintains the desired ground track. 5. Maintains proper approach attitude. 6. Makes smooth, proper, and positive control applications during recovery from the slip. 7. Touches down smoothly within the designated landing area. Working through this with one of my instructors today (a very stable day with absolutely no wind), we had a hard time getting our Blanik L13 to descend steeply enough even with a complete, full-rudder slip. Even after extending the downwind, widening the pattern, and slipping all the way from the base turn, through the base leg, in the final turn and most of the final, we're still too high. We have to resort to using airbrakes or we float the entire length of the field. It would seem that we would need to extend the downwind extraordinarily, or as another instructor suggested, start the pattern uncomfortably low. We already were entering the 45 at 700' AGL instead of the usual 1000' . So two questions, for CFIs or examiners or recent test-takers: 1. Is this the common interpretation of the task below? No drag devices, all the way to the ground? 2. Have you experienced/how would you deal with what seems to be a rather low drag ratio even with a full-rudder slip? ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
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